Re: The Walking Dead

I made the assumption about Carol, Tyrese and Judith because there was zero evidence that they had arrived at Terminus, unlike the witnessed orange back pack, riot gear, watch and poncho that indicated Glenn's group. 

Plus, they were on their way to Terminus before the shacked up at the pecan grove.  After they left, I'm fairly certain they were back on the road to Terminus because there was no where else for them to go.  They may have just been wandering, but I couldn't see them turning down the prospect of safety, especially after everything they had gone through.   They were frustratingly close to Daryl and Beth, from the moonshiner shack fire.  But they holed up until the fire went out and would travel much more slowly with an infant.

I liked that we didn't know exactly where the last bit of the group was at the end.  It adds tension for next season.  Will they save them? Or just end up in the rail car with everyone else?  How will the people at Terminus react to an infant who was obviously born after everything went to shit.  Will they make an exception because of that?  And who is going to go find out what the fuck happened to Beth?

Re: The Walking Dead

I was pretty satisfied with this finale. If you look at this season versus last...man. Its night and day. How bad ass was the throat bite?

So I figure terminus is one of two things:

The most obvious explanation is that they are some combination of a cannibalistic/ritualistic cult that uses the promise of sanctuary to draw in prey. Their wholesome image is a charade, as is the wilting garden in the front and the (seemingly) unguarded, unlocked gates. They have a routine and defined roles to play upon each arrival, dependent on the demeanor of the group and the weaponry they brought with them. Every detail is meticulously planned and rehearsed. If something goes wrong, they have a failsafe which are the shooters on the roof who shoot at them not to kill but to herd them into the rail cars. Who knows exactly what their "plan A" is. Perhaps just to lull them into a false sense of security and detain them as soon as they let their guard down. If this is the case though... they must have a very impressive security detail on the perimeter at all times, not to mention scouts or spies who get an idea of whats coming at them ahead of time. They've got to have some idea prior to  They would not risk all their assets and what they've built there

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

28 (edited by 2punk4pos 2014-04-01 05:08:39)

Re: The Walking Dead

definitely was human remains there, likely what that old lady was bbqing (reminds me of fried green tomatoes) too. lucky rick slapped it from there hands. possibly laced with some sort of "soma" or something.

another thing I noticed is that there were more people caged in train cars- other than their group- because you could hear people yelling for help as they were running through the gauntlet (shortly after they ran past the caged area with the tarp fool of human bones).

I think that room with all the candles, were the names of the dead they've eaten.

29 (edited by 2punk4pos 2014-04-01 05:27:06)

Re: The Walking Dead

http://imageshack.com/a/img28/9703/zfoy.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img33/9800/2j66.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img62/3366/yteg.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img27/8089/92c2.jpg
not only are these the name of the dead and eaten....but each has a trinket taken from their person placed on or by their name.

Re: The Walking Dead

My second thought was...what if everything that happened after they entered terminus was one big extreme initiation ceremony? In any case I find it hard to believe that a place as big and as advertised as Terminus could have survived this long with such lax security. So
I think either way they knew they were coming and chose to let them in. Everything after was still planned and rehearsed just like I said before but this time its to teach them a lesson rather than to eat them.

Heres the thing. If these people really are cannibals, and have no use for anyone other than get them into their cage alive... Why didnt they simply detain them when their weapons were on the ground after they had patted them down? They were completely defenseless. Why risk giving their weapons back and walking them through the facility? Why go through all the bullshit?

Also its a pretty huge coincidence that Rick sees Hershels watch/maggies poncho at all, much less that exact moment when he does, right after they've been led back to the beginning of the "course" (where they would have began if they'd come through the front entrance). They could have very easily coerced Glenn or someone else into telling them about the rest of their group and somehow gathered that they would recognize these personal items they took from them. After all, whats even the point of stealing maggies poncho? They have this big fortress but are lacking on clothing or fashion accessories?

Why were the bones in such an open visible area? Why not use them as toothpicks or to make stock? Lol.

In the big room with the names and the candles...yes, that could be the names of those they've sacrificed. But what if those are names of their comrades who have fallen since this whole thing started? More of a memorial or shrine than some kind of gruesome meal history. After all, why keep all these candles lit or create this area in the first place if these were not friends of theirs? Where were the signs of blood or of killing in general, if this is indeed an altar? I dont remember the words written on the wall exactly but it was something like, "trust no one, group first always".

Which leads back to the reason for this "extreme initiation" as I called it. These people at Terminus are very tactical and very hardened by their experiences since the outbreak. They've had countless losses much like ricks group but more due to their mission of bulding Terminus into what it is today and taking a much more prominent and visible role in the apocolypse. Those words written in the memorial area is their guiding rule or creed that they live by. New recruits must be tested immediately on arrival (because it wouldnt be believable otherwise) and taught do NOT trust. Group first ALWAYS. In other words, hey dumbasses, why did you walk into this place not having any idea what you were getting yourself into? Why in the fuck did you lay down your weapons in front of our feet and expose yourself like that? (To glenns group: why did you trust the signs out front? Why werent you suspicious of these open doors and this fake garden not to mention the radio transmissions? Why bring yourself and everyone you care about into what could very well be a death trap?)

If anyone involved actually felt threatened in any way by any of Ricks group, why not eliminate the threat and eat them now? Better yet if you are these hardcore cannibals why let Rick holding one hostage at gunpoint ruin your entire harvest? Shoot them both immediately and preserve the rest.

Finally, the conversation between the ring leader Garreth and the guy being held at gunpoint Alex... Wasnt it something like

Alex: Garreth! You can tell them!
Garreth: Shut the fuck up Alex!

What the flying fuck?

In the zombie apocolypse a training seminar does not cut it. Recruits must be tested and must learn the hard way if they want to be a part of Terminus.

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

31 (edited by 2punk4pos 2014-04-01 13:58:47)

Re: The Walking Dead

alex meant "tell them where their friends are"....likely cause that would have rendered the same result without all the ammo loss.

the bones weren't in a visible area...they were in the back...where only the people they are seemingly going to eat are herded.

i do not see any evidence of initiation, whatsoever. i see them trying to keep their meat fresh.

it is possible they are trying to "break them down" in the traincar, by feeding them only garbage food (you can see the wrappers in that one shot, right before rick steps inside)...likely they'll be kept in there until near starvation and then offered human meat...

none of the evidence points towards that room being about their fallen comrades, all the evidence points towards it being people they've eaten....you've got to go off the evidence we have.

just look at the cuts of meat...did you see any cattle or pigs anywhere? cause i didn't...i did however see human remains.

Re: The Walking Dead

would've been way cooler if they beheaded them, ate their bodies and kept all their animated skulls by the names on the floor! ha.

33 (edited by ℊnat 2014-04-01 16:30:31)

Re: The Walking Dead

2punk4pos wrote:

alex meant "tell them where their friends are"....likely cause that would have rendered the same result without all the ammo loss.

the bones weren't in a visible area...they were in the back...where only the people they are seemingly going to eat are herded.

i do not see any evidence of initiation, whatsoever. i see them trying to keep their meat fresh.

it is possible they are trying to "break them down" in the traincar, by feeding them only garbage food (you can see the wrappers in that one shot, right before rick steps inside)...likely they'll be kept in there until near starvation and then offered human meat...

none of the evidence points towards that room being about their fallen comrades, all the evidence points towards it being people they've eaten....you've got to go off the evidence we have.

just look at the cuts of meat...did you see any cattle or pigs anywhere? cause i didn't...i did however see human remains.

Yes I know my theory is a stretch and most likely not true, but it is as sound as anything I've heard outside the all too obvious cannibal thing. The bones are of course human, my point was even if they are "in the back" theres no reason they should be out in the open or not disposed of altogether. All the effort they've gone to preserve their friendly appearance..how much trouble would it be to take that obvious small step? To your other point, there are at least a few different conceivable ways one could obtain human bones in the apocalypse. And if I you were to assume the whole place was basically for show (which I was) it is not unreasonable to think a prop like human bones might be effective if a group were to ever notice them.

I know you think of yourself as the undisputed expert of everything, but I think I brought up some very glaring inconsistencies/good points. In tradition with your normal argument strategy you picked out a couple things and left out the vast majority of everything else, yet made a sweeping generalizion of my overall conclusion. Unless you make more of a comprehensive effort no one will ever respect your opinions on anything.

On a slightly different note,

I dont want to believe that almost every single main character was dumb enough to simply walk into that place freely given the things they've been through already with woodbury and the governor...not to mention rick and michonne was JUST ambushed. They arent amatuers and would have never really been that careless.

Edit: also to any of you LOST fans out there, did you find this terminus group (at least in the way it was presented) at all reminiscent of how The Others were portrayed early on? I did.

Edit 2: if you will notice, there are quite a few places around the net starting to consider the idea terminus might actually be a sanctuary. I know cannibals exist in the comics but thats no reason to assume this isnt a red herring.

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

Re: The Walking Dead

It very well could be a red herring.  The bones definitely hinted at cannibalism, but I'm open to your idea, gnat.  I don't think that all of the articles from Glenn's group were staged though.  I would think at this point that they wouldn't have even mentioned the rest of the prison survivors because they wouldn't have known if anyone survived or if they somehow found their way to the tracks.

The fact that it seems like they doled out their belongings amongst themselves instead of putting them aside for when they "completed" initiation also seems a little suspect.  I think it would be an interesting, and welcome, twist if you were right, though.

Plus, if they do end up being not-so-bad guys, then what will happen to all of Rick's righteous rage?  He'll feel pretty silly if he kills some of them before anything is explained to him.

Re: The Walking Dead

so if it was a test, how would they pass?

stop to free the people in the traincars?

Re: The Walking Dead

and im not claiming expertise, im just going with what they are directing you to think...if they are manipulating the audience as part of a ruse, then I can roll with it, but im not certain that's the case is all.

37 (edited by 2punk4pos 2014-04-02 02:47:52)

Re: The Walking Dead

I still think there might be some sort of re-education/indoctrination process that may or may not involve a "soma" type drug....or maybe human meat has that affect (I really do think it was of symbolic importance when rick smacked the food from Daryl's hand)

Re: The Walking Dead

2nd question: what is the symbolism of "A"?

39 (edited by 2punk4pos 2014-04-02 02:52:07)

Re: The Walking Dead

Cappy wrote:

It very well could be a red herring.  The bones definitely hinted at cannibalism, but I'm open to your idea, gnat.  I don't think that all of the articles from Glenn's group were staged though.  I would think at this point that they wouldn't have even mentioned the rest of the prison survivors because they wouldn't have known if anyone survived or if they somehow found their way to the tracks.

The fact that it seems like they doled out their belongings amongst themselves instead of putting them aside for when they "completed" initiation also seems a little suspect.  I think it would be an interesting, and welcome, twist if you were right, though.

I agree...if gnat's argument were true I guess that would have to be part of the test? but then how would they know they were "related" to that group, when the others didn't even know whether they were alive or dead, let alone on their way to terminus. does seem a bit of a stretch, but that wouldn't be a first on this show lol I do suppose they could have had that stuff in view to see who would react to it, to see who was with the others before. BUT that leads to the question....what the hell went down to render the first group in the traincar? gnats scenario just seems to lead to more unanswered q's!

Re: The Walking Dead

It also leads to more possibilities, which means more freedom and more room for creativity for the writers. If pretty much the entire group is indeed trapped by a well organized team of cannibals, the overarching storyline of season 5 is already set.

As far as how they might have known the two groups were related...we dont know how long glenns bunch had been there before ricks arrived. Or what lengths they might have gone to to extract information. I dont think they would have seriously hurt anyone, or done anything that would have undermined their goal of eventually establishing trust. For all we know, they had an easier time manipulating them into giving up some kind of info on their own. My best guess is, glenns group might have given some small detail that gave away they were once (recently) part of a larger group, which put terminus' defense and surveillence on red alert. Perhaps the personal items were used to confirm without a doubt that they had indeed weeded out the wildcard...and they can now group them together and begin the next phase?

These minor details and nuances, again, are probably not going to pan out even if I end up being right. And as long as we've spent discussing it, they could easily have the whole twist played out and fully explained in ten or fifteen minutes and move on. The writers could (and should with their salaries) sum it up fairly succinctly.

And it wouldnt be so much passing the test as it would be enduring it, and after its over, accepting it.

I havent even thought about "A" or any of the random words (literally) written on the walls. Too wrapped up in this conspiracy theory for now.

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

41 (edited by 2punk4pos 2014-04-02 16:39:15)

Re: The Walking Dead

minor nuances or major plotholes? lol

I think you are really speculatively pushing it...

glenn et al wouldn't have reacted like rick and co (cause they would have been in a diff position)....so why/how did they end up in the railcar, unless they reacted "negatively" to something they saw?

why are they being fed shitty food, while the rest of the terminus group is being fed meat?

the letter "A" clearly has some symbolism....as that is the title of the episode.


making it a sanctuary would be a terrible plot development in my opinion...will make for a boring next season of newly introd character development for people who are just going to be killed off quickly anyways...this entire season was char dev....they need to move on to more of a storyline. they are failing to achieve a balance, in this regards...and turning a lot of people off the show....as many people see it becoming too soap opera-y.

Re: The Walking Dead

"A" is the category that Rick and co are at the moment, one of the doors they were herded through was marked A and I'm pretty sure the container they're in now had an A on it (I'm in work so can't check atm)
If that's the case then they're obviously going to be processed through B, C etc.. either fattened up for the table or conditioned to join the group.
I don't think it was intentional they saw the keepsakes from the first group, more blind luck, Ricks a cop and is trained to notice fine details, and during the stand off the guy with the nice hair made a definite signal for Rick to be shot when he closed his fist so they're not that friendly.
It could still be a test, there's a chance Glen got locked away because he wouldn't shut the fuck up about Maggie and how much he loves her and missed her, no place for love in a zombie apocalypse.
Personally I prefer the cannibal idea (entertainment-wise), 5 will be a better season if they're escaping a cannibal cult rather than integrating into a new bigger group.
I'm most interested about Carls "monster" revelation and seeing how that pans out next season

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

43 (edited by Guana 2014-04-02 21:19:27)

Re: The Walking Dead

Guana wrote:

I'm most interested about Carls "monster" revelation and seeing how that pans out next season

That's a good point G

Guana wrote:

Why Thankyou big_smile

A lot was made of that side of the survivors last night, Carl asking "who are we?", Michonnes history, yet another twitch before another psycho storm from Rick, Herschel trying to steer the group back to humanity in the flashbacks, in fact all the survivors seem to exhibit behaviour they wouldn't have been capable of before the outbreak.
I always assumed it was just a case of desperate times call for desperate measures, but now I'm wondering if maybe the psychotic episodes, hallucinations and delusions are symptomatic of whatever is affecting the human race, whoever dies turns undead, whoever survives turns feral, and some people like The Governor and Lizzie are just further along than the rest of them.
Worth considering?

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

Re: The Walking Dead

I find that most zombie stories tend to be about humanity and morality.  Can you retain those things if you have to commit acts you never would have otherwise?  At what point are you no better than the mindless monsters before you?  I think they've just been bringing those themes even more to the forefront since the Governor entered the picture.  Especially in this season with Rick turning farmer to try to save his son, Carol's attempt to prevent the spread of disease and Lizzie.

I think the fact that Carl thinks of himself as a monster means he isn't completely one.  Lizzie, on the other hand, had no idea that she was doing anything wrong.

Re: The Walking Dead

Cappy wrote:

I find that most zombie stories tend to be about humanity and morality.  Can you retain those things if you have to commit acts you never would have otherwise?  At what point are you no better than the mindless monsters before you?

It is pretty standard fare in zombie movies, that's why til last night I just accepted it as part of the character development, but last episode just seemed a little bit full on imo, it could just be the writers going through the motions and covering the cliche, or it might be more, the virus supposedly sits dormant in your brain til you die but who knows the effect over the years on a healthy living brain?
Assuming the human race were all affected at roughly the same time then there's no way of knowing the long term damage, everyones a test subject.

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

46 (edited by 2punk4pos 2014-04-03 00:14:01)

Re: The Walking Dead

Carl clearly had a major psychology shift- back to reality, his underlying innocence revealed- after getting taken hostage. I was wondering whether he pissed and shit himself. at least for a moment.

I agree with Cappy, the commentary about psychopaths being the driving force of modern society (probably all societies across time, really) is one example of a few different ways in which zombie flicks are generally used to make social commentary. even the first NOTLD had that element, kind of proposing the question, are we already in (or that far away from) a dystopian society? I think that addresses what you are talking about Guana.

ohhhh I see you are suggesting that is an effect of it while you are still alive, eh? I think that's pushing it a little bit. its more likely that more psychopaths/sociopaths are surviving because of "survival of the fittest". its not that more people are becoming them...just that those with who naturally possess or can adapt to possess those qualities are more likely to survive under the conditions.

Re: The Walking Dead

whats carl's "Monster Revelation" referring to?

Re: The Walking Dead

2punk4pos wrote:

whats carl's "Monster Revelation" referring to?

The bit with him and Michonne talking and him saying his dad was proud of him but really, in ghis own eyes he was a monster.

"I tried to push him away with my head and I shouldn't have done that." - Alan Pardew

Re: The Walking Dead

that was right at the start eh?

Re: The Walking Dead

2punk4pos wrote:

Carl clearly had a major psychology shift- back to reality, his underlying innocence revealed- after getting taken hostage. I was wondering whether he pissed and shit himself. at least for a moment.

I agree with Cappy, the commentary about psychopaths being the driving force of modern society (probably all societies across time, really) is one example of a few different ways in which zombie flicks are generally used to make social commentary. even the first NOTLD had that element, kind of proposing the question, are we already in (or that far away from) a dystopian society? I think that addresses what you are talking about Guana.

ohhhh I see you are suggesting that is an effect of it while you are still alive, eh? I think that's pushing it a little bit. its more likely that more psychopaths/sociopaths are surviving because of "survival of the fittest". its not that more people are becoming them...just that those with who naturally possess or can adapt to possess those qualities are more likely to survive under the conditions.

I already said its a fairly standard angle in zombie flicks or any kind of portrayal of society breaking down, that the scum inherit the earth and decent people do indecent things when their hand is forced.
I'm also aware of the statistic that states more psychopaths/sociopaths are running big businesses and government departments than are sat in Broadmoor with a packet of crayons, a complete lack of caring about how your actions affect the rest of society is ideal for success in this day and age.
But.... I'm still keeping an open mind as to the effects of having the virus when you're alive and healthy, especially with it being housed in the brain, and until we know the origins of the virus, whether its a government made plague, a parasite from a meteor or a result of genetically modifying the food chain we can't rule this out. Something that can have such a profound effect on humans upon death is quite likely to have a knock on side effect (or several of them) pre death.
Chances are the whole episode was just a commentary on the usual mentality of a race with its back to the wall, I was just throwing the theory out for discussion.
Sheesh 2punk, you should try being a bit open-minded now and then tongue

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad