Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

ANTISOCIAL wrote:

Guana, history like that needs to be better taught.  Thanks for digging that up.  I wish this world would realize that it shouldn't be white vs black, it should be rich vs poor.  Sadly mainstream media and 'entertainment' have the sheeple so brainwashed and distracted, the rich will continue to consolidate their power and control over us.

I completely agree. It is Rich vs Poor, only, because that would be such a one sided battle due to sheer numbers, we've been being divided for centuries. Race is just one way, while society gives all the impressions that it's trying to even the playing field between races, the media throws out cliches and goes out of it's way to make them seem a  threat. Positive stories like those above, and any story that portrayed black people as normal decent people got pushed aside and the focus was put on crime, riots, stereotypes, any shit that shone a bad light.

They did the same thing with Women's Lib, introduced lots of new laws that gave women more "rights", and at the same time the media portrayed them as fluffy housewives or just a nice pair of tits, now they get to work harder in a wider range of employment for less pay and vote in elections that were decided months before. Nowadays the media will happily portray the Dad of the family as being the dumb one while the rest of the family roll's their eyes at him. Obviously, this is just as offensive as the way it used to be, but the manufactured divide needs to be there because it fucks up the family unit which is the heart of our strength. Divorce used to be a scandal when I was a kid, families would move if they divorced because it was seen as a failure, it was embarrassing for them and all the neighbours used to gossip about them in hushed tones. Nowadays it's seen as "empowering" it's fuckin celebrated, I've passed cake-shops and seen cakes with "Congratulations on your Divorce" iced across them with a picture of broken handcuffs, it's fucking encouraged, and divorce is a car-crash, someone always suffers, people are left homeless, kids are put into care and thousands of pounds get's spent doing it.
When my youngest Daughter left school there was only her and her mate in the entire class that still lived with both their biological parents, that's a heartbreaking statistic.

They did the same thing with Gay rights, introduced a bunch of aggressive catch-all laws that threatened the straight population if they even thought about being homophobic, at the same time portraying gays on TV as mincing hedonists who want to grab your bum, and telling us day in day out that they're spreading the plague that will wipe out mankind. Facebook introduces a boatload of new gender choices for it's mainly young and impressionable audience, if a handful of genders and sexual leanings can be divided so successfully, imagine what they can do with all these new ones thrown into the mix?

Nobody likes being told what to do, but society has managed to make any minority like the ones above seem overly protected with more rights than us, and laughing in our faces while they do what the fuck they want.

and of course it goes deeper, once everybody is divided by groups, divide the groups, that's where political correctness plays it's trump card, when I posted about Al Jolson back there I paused thinking "is black the correct term to use?" it's fuckin ridiculous.
But, because we're such a dumb population we can have such dumb distractions, when we're keeping an eye on the bloke nextdoor we're not watching them.

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

27 (edited by paulmccu 2016-06-04 16:55:42)

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

As an educator who works on these issues, I find this entire thread uninformed and poorly thought out. As a person of color, I find it offensive. I don't have the energy to help correct the historical problems with some of the fucked up things people have said in their posts- even if i did, the "yellow panther" in me is so raging pissed that I would be unable to offer anything constructive anyway. What I will say is this: instead of sitting around listening to other white people discuss how they feel about their right to appropriate a caricatureized blackness for their own entertainment and dismiss the historical legacies that structure people of color's opposition to these images as mere "oversensitvity" you might go and read about these issues on Colorlines.com, rent or download Spike Lee's Bamboozeled, check out the documentary "Blacking Up" or, if you want an academic text, you can pick Eric Lott's Love and Theft. Most of what Patricia Hill Collins discusses in “Mammies, Matriarchs, and Other Controlling Images,” is also relevant.
You can read it here: http://www.angelfire.com/indie/kristychan/collins.html.

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

paulmccu wrote:

As an educator who works on these issues, I find this entire thread uninformed and poorly thought out. As a person of color, I find it offensive. I don't have the energy to help correct the historical problems with some of the fucked up things people have said in their posts- even if i did, the "yellow panther" in me is so raging pissed that I would be unable to offer anything constructive anyway. What I will say is this: instead of sitting around listening to other white people discuss how they feel about their right to appropriate a caricatureized blackness for their own entertainment and dismiss the historical legacies that structure people of color's opposition to these images as mere "oversensitvity" you might go and read about these issues on Colorlines.com, rent or download Spike Lee's Bamboozeled, check out the documentary "Blacking Up" or, if you want an academic text, you can pick Eric Lott's Love and Theft. Most of what Patricia Hill Collins discusses in “Mammies, Matriarchs, and Other Controlling Images,” is also relevant.
You can read it here: http://www.angelfire.com/indie/kristychan/collins.html.

yeah its pretty hard to respond when you dont actually address anything thats been said. And dude, fuck off with the smugness.

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

29 (edited by paulmccu 2016-06-05 00:44:22)

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

gnat wrote:
paulmccu wrote:

As an educator who works on these issues, I find this entire thread uninformed and poorly thought out. As a person of color, I find it offensive. I don't have the energy to help correct the historical problems with some of the fucked up things people have said in their posts- even if i did, the "yellow panther" in me is so raging pissed that I would be unable to offer anything constructive anyway. What I will say is this: instead of sitting around listening to other white people discuss how they feel about their right to appropriate a caricatureized blackness for their own entertainment and dismiss the historical legacies that structure people of color's opposition to these images as mere "oversensitvity" you might go and read about these issues on Colorlines.com, rent or download Spike Lee's Bamboozeled, check out the documentary "Blacking Up" or, if you want an academic text, you can pick Eric Lott's Love and Theft. Most of what Patricia Hill Collins discusses in “Mammies, Matriarchs, and Other Controlling Images,” is also relevant.
You can read it here: http://www.angelfire.com/indie/kristychan/collins.html.

yeah its pretty hard to respond when you dont actually address anything thats been said. And dude, fuck off with the smugness.

You are so right: my smugness is the problem. It's not not institutionalized racism or your inability to read an article that I provided for you. After all, why would centuries of colonialism and domestic racism actually matter? How dare I get angry? I guess it's really hard to read an article that is right there for you. It's so punk rock not to read.

30 (edited by ℊnat 2016-06-05 02:36:09)

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

Yeah, it takes so much effort to link to an angelfire page (the link doesn't even work, for your information).
All I was asking for was perhaps quote the shit from the thread you disagree with, then give a specific response to those things, instead of just spewing bullshit generalizations. Thats how conversations tend to work.

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

31 (edited by paulmccu 2016-06-05 05:27:15)

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

Conversations do, indeed, work that way, but why? Why would those with the most privelge ask  the least privileged to explain their oppression to the elite? It's not tiny tim's job. Tiny Tim -- the cis gendered, people of color, the working poor, the --don't owe you shit. the only reason to explain to a capitalist why the system sucks is if you want capitalism to comprimise with labor. Fuck that. Burn it down. If you care about oprression, then do the work,  LOOK IT THE FUCK UP. If the link does not work then LOOK IT UP. It's not hard. You want me to explain it to you? Fuck you. I'm not talking to you per se...I know that you were genuinely trying to understand an issue that didn't make sense to you. What concerns me is the lack of accountability in the responses. I wouldn't expect an honest response to class oppression from capitalists, so I wouldn't expect much here either. But if you're suprised that I'm pissed off, I think you should ask why. An anarchist would be pissed off listening to capitalists defend class oppression, right? Well, imagine if it was a space where that person assumed that it wasn't filled with capitalists-  they assumed they were safe....that's how I fell right now. I feel like you want me to explain--in short form---decades of learning and subjective understanding. I can't. I spend entire semesters covering the basics. You want a short response like Bill O'Rielly wants short responses and I can't do that. I am sorry that the link did not work...I can't explain why the angelfire link to AN ACADEMIC ARTICLE didn't work (It's the right link....), but you have the title so it's a simple google search away. I'm not sorry for being hostile. quite frankly, people of color, trans and queer folk, women, and ever intersection of those subjectivities have been apologizing to people for far too long. If you actually care, than do the work. I'm happy to provide some sources for you, but it's your responsibility if you actually care (lots of errors=lots of booze. sorry.)

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

I think there are plenty of drunk threads man. I've made most of them. Use one of them or make a thread in troll of your own called "paulmccu rambles incoherently about cisgenders, tiny tim and anarchy" .

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

33 (edited by BloozEhouNd 2016-06-05 16:42:27)

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

Paul, while I sympathize, somewhat, with some of the points you're trying to make, the bottom line is this:  You can only control yourself.  Calling other people names and then demanding that they come to the same conclusions as you without any help from you is never going to work.

When you say "look it up," someone could easily, instead, find Milo Yiannopoulos instead of whoever you think they should find instead.  Responding to every disagreement with emotional rants instead of cold, hard facts isn't productive, unless you're trying to produce a world where people just don't want to listen to you anymore.

It is *NOT* everyone else's responsibility to agree with you; it is your responsibility to make a compelling, coherent point.

EDIT:  As an anarchist/voluntarist, I never assume that everyone agrees with me or that I'm in some sort of safe space where my ideas will never be challenged.  I am always prepared to talk about the reasons that I believe what I do without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

My internet is awful and I'm sharing it.  If you're waiting on me to seed something, be patient; I'll do my best.

"I will never bow down to another man even when everyone's saying I've sinned."  - Toh Kay

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

Also, gnat, that link works if you remove the extra period at the end.

My internet is awful and I'm sharing it.  If you're waiting on me to seed something, be patient; I'll do my best.

"I will never bow down to another man even when everyone's saying I've sinned."  - Toh Kay

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

Gotta agree with Gnat and Blooze on this one, as a "person of colour" your input would be pretty valuable in a conversation like this, but you haven't offered any input, the thread asks for "your" take on blacking up, it doesn't ask for links or videos that vaguely prove a point you haven't made. Use them to back up your argument by all means but have the decency to make an argument in the first place.
The fact that we're now arguing about how to argue completely over-rides any other point you were trying to make. Want to start over? You're an educator, educate us.

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

I feel like I was, perhaps, a little harsh in my previous post.  I'm sorry if it was interpreted in that way.  I really do relate to a lot of the points you're making.

For instance, when people talk about whether they should support Hillary or Trump, I want to scream at them about the innocent children that are being killed by drone strikes every single day and that neither one of those psychopaths are going to stop it.

But I know that will not help anyone to understand.  Instead, I approach it rationally and calmly.  I provide evidence.  I show people alternatives.  I help them to understand because, if I don't help, they won't change and the world won't change.

So, please, help us.  Don't assume the worst about us.  Assume that we care just as much as you do, but that, perhaps, we don't have all the information that you have.  Also, be open to the possibility that we might have information that you don't have.

That's how a conversation works.  That's how understanding each other works.  That's how we can change the world.

My internet is awful and I'm sharing it.  If you're waiting on me to seed something, be patient; I'll do my best.

"I will never bow down to another man even when everyone's saying I've sinned."  - Toh Kay

37 (edited by paulmccu 2016-06-06 05:23:25)

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

I'm not ignoring you Guana...I just don't know how to quote two threads at one time. I do want to respond because I totally understand what you're both saying. I'm generally 100% behind you the importance respectful dialogue and respect, but in this case I think you're both kind of wrong. I'm not going to sit here and say I was careful with my words. I wouldn't have posted that particular post had I given myself to calm down and remember that most of the people here are open-minded and hope that at least a significant are at least politically engaged enough to nod to social justice. With that said, I've been called out a number of times for deeply ingrained behaviors and I deserved it when I've been called out on it. I mansplained something to a friend of mine and she bit my head off...and she was right. I'd like to believe that I'd take it to heart if I'm ever called out on it again. That's accountability. What I don't get to do is tell anyone that they should not be mad because I think they are overreacting.

I'm not saying that any one individual made a specific comment on a thread or anything like that. Even if someone, I wouldn't call them out on it as if it was exceptional. The whole thing was constructed as closed-circuit conversation between (I'm assuming here) white people without even a nod that there's probably some black voices that have said something about this somewhere. I'm saying that a thread that dismisses and ignores the people most affected by the things that you're talking about can hit a critical mass and I have to assume that the no one actual cared enough to seek out critical voices on the issues being asked. Shit. Did anyone actually think that a person of color might have have had some points on this worth reading?  did anyone actually want some outside voices. Maybe they've read it all. I mean, one would have to understand the literature pretty well to dismiss it that easily. P.S. he claim that a political claim is just oversensitive is an outright dismissal of the idea. It's the shit that men do with references to a women's cycle and its the shit that shows an absolute disinterest in dialogue. it's about that sentiment hitting a critical mass- ten of those comments you'll never hear from an angry asian or any other person of color because they won't feel welcome. A "not welcome" sign is but one way to communicate exclusion.


As far as the question about the teaching, I'll say this. I did as much as I am willing to do with any student who doesn't seem to want to learn. That's not a judgement. I just mean that I'm not compiling a bunch of material for people who don't seem to want to hear actual ideas from a black feminists or a white academic, or cultural producers in mainstream culture, or a white documentary filmaker who was asks a lot of questions about the legacies of blackface  . Pretty diverse list of thinkers and it's right there. Of course, it might make you "sensitive" to injustice or something. If you have an interest in something specific I probably help you find some good readings that won't take forever to read (Robin Kelly's Yo Mama's Dysfunktional! provides a good historical and social analysis of some what I've seen posted). it just depends on what you're willing to do. Shit, I'll send you my syllabus for a comparative ethnic studies course I taught. If you read the material, I'll even you power points. we can talk about that list or why I chose that list or whatever.  I gave you a list of things I've actually required to read and watch in basic intro class on race and ethnicity. I'm happy to provide more if people want to explore some ideas. I'll even try to to keep them on to a chapter and, if I have it, I'll send it to you. We can exchange emails about something you are thinking about or don't understand, but if you really want to understand something  something then yeah, you do have to do a little work. If noting else, read the Patricia Hill Collins piece. You'll have read one of the best articles on this topic. 

Shit, why would I want to volunteer a lifetime of learning to people who don't actually want to put in a little bit of time and already think that its p.c. bullshit or irrational anger.. Turns out when you're mad, people are like "stop being so smug" and when you peacefully make your claim people are like "sensitive p.c. bullshit."  This is why people think uprising are riots: when you ignore someone's voice when they ask you to listen, and ignore them when they scream injustice, and then they they yell about their struggle with violence, police brutality, poverty, and tell you exactly what's wrong...
I want to be really clear about this: I am not making a claim that a dismissal of my being pissed. I'm saying that if you don't know why people of color have problems with these images then it's only because you decided not to listen or you've willfully ignored the voice of reasonable and peaceful debate. So I posted some things to read cause because it's pretty clear that most of you have already decided what you think actually think about these I'm saying that I felt like that the dialogue had already established that dismissal. It's great to emulate Martin Luther King, Jr. but if I enter a room that's basically already decided not to listen, then  then I got Huey Newton, Angela Davis, and David Banks to emulate  Post an article. I don't know. 

I think the post-race problem paradigm has skewed our understand of responsibility and accountability. Maybe people don't believe that it's there anymore or maybe it's that they think that the racism is bad cops and radical fringe organizations. I think people are there yet with other identity claims. People understand that trans bodies are not valued in society so if there was a movement like that people would "get it" and why its important. A black live matter gets dismissed because white people think that "all lives matter-" with the same dismissive tone that people of color hear every time they make claims about their social experiences. The result: people of color start to yell. white people act confused and on the major news network you'll hear about a riot and Fox news will mask a bunch of racism with race evasive language that makes it sound like its about being equal broke out. of anger shouldn't be dismissed if it's about race and a person of color comments informing you that I'm offended.  You don't get to tell me how I should feel about racism. You get to listen. And I get to listen when it's about male privilege or cis privilege or anything else that reinforces oppression. I GET to stand in solidarity with Blacks, Latino/as, indigenous peoples, in a fight for liberation. As for me, I get to shut up and listen when I'm with someone whose raging pissed. You can think I'm smug, but I do listen and I take questions seriously, so I listen when someone loses there shit on something I didn't think about. It probably means listening when they whispered- because I knoe I don't think enough about disability as social justice question and I do sometimes use ablist terms that devalue real lives then I o  haven't spent enough thinking about disability and probably use language that I shouldn't and get respectively ackowledge that they have the tight to be pissed at me if I fail in my responsibility to the people around me. and I get to shut up and listen EVEN IF I DIDN"T MEAN TO OFFEND.  I get listen if I've done something to misgender someone and take seriously the terms of other people's exclusion.

38 (edited by ℊnat 2016-06-06 09:51:44)

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

Look, you are going to need to step off that high horse of yours if you are ever going to get any kind of respect around here. No one gives a shit about how special you think you are. I want as many intelligent voices as possible on this forum, especially ones I disagree with, but you have been and still are out of line. How dare you imply that I don't understand discrimination or persecution just because I'm white? More importantly, how the hell are you going to stand there and preach to us about sensitivity when we are one of the most open minded and fair groups of people you will ever find (especially within the realm of punk).

Why won't you just make your damn argument? You wrote all that crap and still didn't make a coherent case against anything we've said. All you've done is said we have no right to have an opinion and referenced a bunch of shit. You are clearly an intelligent and passionate person, but you are way too into labels. Do you not understand that there is ultimately only one war going on? It's not between blacks and whites, men and women, gays and straights, rich and poor, trans and...what is the politically correct term for "not trans" again? Oh wait, thats right... I don't give a fuck.

The ruling class use these neat little labels to keep us all apart, to keep us all divided when the trouble starts ...know what I mean? wink

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

Did anyone actually think that a person of color might have have had some points on this worth reading? 

Yes if only we had a couple of "persons of colour" with an opinion on this now where oh where could we find them hmmmmmmmm...it would seem to me reading through this thread two "persons of colour" did have something to say on this, that neither of us gave two hoots about it.
Racism dosen't just affect "people of colour" anyone no matter there colour can and should be encouraged to have an opinion on it.

40 (edited by paulmccu 2016-06-06 13:34:11)

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

Howling wrote:

Did anyone actually think that a person of color might have have had some points on this worth reading? 

Yes if only we had a couple of "persons of colour" with an opinion on this now where oh where could we find them hmmmmmmmm...it would seem to me reading through this thread two "persons of colour" did have something to say on this, that neither of us gave two hoots about it.
Racism dosen't just affect "people of colour" anyone no matter there colour can and should be encouraged to have an opinion on it.

I did read through the thread, but an image of a soccer player, a kind of cool portrait of some sort of hybrid figure, a toilet paper roll (?) with a message, and a fish are not racial signifiers nor do they provide clues to embodied subjectivity. I acknowledged that I was assuming something about the demography in the post, but you are right in general. I should not have done that. I could have made my point without any risk of marginalizing voices and I did. I apologize.

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

paulmccu wrote:
Howling wrote:

Did anyone actually think that a person of color might have have had some points on this worth reading? 

Yes if only we had a couple of "persons of colour" with an opinion on this now where oh where could we find them hmmmmmmmm...it would seem to me reading through this thread two "persons of colour" did have something to say on this, that neither of us gave two hoots about it.
Racism dosen't just affect "people of colour" anyone no matter there colour can and should be encouraged to have an opinion on it.

I did read through the thread, but an image of a soccer player, a kind of cool portrait of some sort of hybrid figure, a toilet paper roll (?) with a message, and a fish are not racial signifiers nor do they provide clues to embodied subjectivity. I acknowledged that I was assuming something about the demography in the post, but you are right in general. I should not have done that. I could have made my point without any risk of marginalizing voices and I did. I apologize.

No reason to apoligise but your point actually makes a good point in my mind..there aren't any clues to race in peoples avavtars neither i nor bettie (if i remember correctly but i'm speaking 99% for me here not trying to put words in anyone elses mouth) consider ourselves part of the whole when it comes down too Race...why should there be racial signifiers why should we be forced too identify to tick a box that says we are this that or ten of the other(not saying you said anyone should just making a point). Pride too my mind dosen't stem from getting on a soapbox and shouting out i'm different you must acknowledge me you must accept me you must not dislike me. It's a personal matter to my mind, and frankly i do think the #blacklivesmatter was poorly thought out why the hell shouldn't it be #everysinglelifematters
You draw attention to the fact a couple of times that white people do this and white people do that (mass generalising of a race and what they do and don't do??)
i till the day i die will belive the only way to stamp out racism is simply to do away with race and remember we are all human beings.
You teach this for a living i get that it's a passion for you and so it should be if it's YOUR passion. The problem i have with your argument is simply that your not giving just YOUR opinion you're taking on the mantle it appears to me at least of all the people of colour shouting YOUR opinion as the opinion of all couloured people??
The fuck gives you the right?
I'm not an academic i'm not a scholar hell you could argue i aint even that bright some days, but i do have an opinion of my own, as does every man and woman in here and they have the right to express what they feel whether they have read the literature whether they have lived a life of oppresion as a person of colour or even if they happen to be the wrong colour and you feel there say dosen't matter as much as a coloured persons..they have the right.

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

The first problem I have trying to understand you, Paul, as Howling talked about, is your assertions of universality.  You are assuming that all members of any given group have the same opinions.  This collectivist approach doesn't allow for differences in individual experience or personal desire.  It doesn't allow for the possibility that people who may be part of a dominant group in one venue are not dominant in another.  So, when talking about issues of skin color, for instance, what's a white person supposed to do when talking to two black people that don't agree with each other?  Does a black person's opinion outweigh an Asian person's opinion or is it the other way around?  Does the answer to the previous question change when you're in Vietnam?  What about when you're in Ghana?

The second thing that I have trouble with is the assertion that some people just have to shut up and do whatever someone else tells them to do.  I have never been okay with blind obedience and it makes me very uncomfortable to even entertain the thought that it is permissible, or even desirable, under any conditions.  It seems like you're asking for unquestioning obedience.  Am I wrong about that?  If you are, I have further questions and concerns, but I'd like to understand your position first.

So, what I'm not going to do when I have these questions here is "Look it up," as you have suggested.  The reason that I'm not going to do that is because *I WANT YOUR OPINION.*  This is me, as a person, reaching out to another person.  I believe that each person has their own individual opinions, needs, and desires.  I don't believe that all Asian males (as you have identified yourself) think the same way about every issue.  I will consider what you have to say and compare it to things that other people have said and the conclusions I've come to.  Maybe I will find your expression of your beliefs to be compelling and I will change my mind.  Maybe I won't.  If that opportunity is not worth your time, don't expect me to change.  Under no circumstances should you ever expect me to just do anything you say without question.

These are legitimate concerns I have that have not been addressed in any of my reading, research, or discussions into or with proponents of intersectionality.  To put it succinctly, it seems to disempower individuals while promoting divisive, groupthink ideals.  You can dismiss these questions and concerns, if you'd like, or deflect, but, again, don't expect me to change my views if these concerns are not addressed.

Maybe I'm just saying the same things as Howling.  Call it whitesplaining, if you want, but he's right; *WE* are right.  *EVERYONE* deserves the right to express their opinion, no matter how much someone else may disagree with it.  That can never be said too many times.

My internet is awful and I'm sharing it.  If you're waiting on me to seed something, be patient; I'll do my best.

"I will never bow down to another man even when everyone's saying I've sinned."  - Toh Kay

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

Oh boy, now that I finally got my new computer I can post regularly again! 



gnat wrote:

I think there are plenty of drunk threads man. I've made most of them. Use one of them or make a thread in troll of your own called "paulmccu rambles incoherently about cisgenders, tiny tim and anarchy" .

Gnat, you are coming across a tad harsh bro. This isnt troll


If I remember correctly the guy with the soccer picture (Pheonix) isnt Asian but has lived in and taught in China for years.



(see "paul", i assume your name is paul and you teach at a mccu going by your username, as your avatar doesn't tell me any more about you than my toilet paper roll tells you about me. Although MCCU are Cricket colleges in the UK and your posts say you are in Buffalo, so here I went assuming you were from the UK. We really shouldn't assume things...)


I think I get what Paul was getting at in his first post, and since his (her? shouldn't make assumptions) post came across a bit aggressive, people immediately flinch and feel attacked.
Like, really, do we even have to ask ourselves if dressing in blackface is ok or appropriate? Of course it isn't. I actually am surprised such a large group of people (the teams fans, I mean) would actually even entertain the idea. Even as a "Bob Marley tribute."Should I use that as a broad generalization that European soccer fans are all hooligan racists who throw bananas at black players? 
Paul is saying that reading a bunch of people discussing the appropriateness of blackface (when there is no appropriateness, ever) seems out of line to him. Especially when it appears at least MOST of us (more than 50%) are white males. Perhaps it is. But we start these conversations to discuss things, and hey look what happened, a guy who doesnt post very much came into the discussion and has a viewpoint. A DIFFERENT viewpoint than some of us seem to have. Most of you seem to be getting worked up over what Paul said but I think he has a point. Being that this is a DISCUSSION not one of you has to agree with him.

Myself, as I read back over the first posts in this thread, including my own, we do come across as a bunch of people saying its not that big a deal to be wear blackface. As Paul self identified as a "yellow panther" in a post I will "assume" that he is Asian, so the question of "what do you think about a soccer/football/table tennis/ beer pong teams fans gathering en masse and all wearing blackface?" Is no different than if the original post was "Is it ok for, say, a teams fans to wear yellowface and dress as Hideki Tojo?"

Now its one thing to post links to articles and texts, and to quote from that material and such. What the others here are getting at is that you are kinda coming across as that guy in Good Will Hunting in the bar scene who knows all this stuff but can only (in the words of Matt Damon) "regurgitate" lines from other peoples/authors/historians/street preachers texts, but do YOU have any original thoughts on the matter? Why do you feel the way you feel? Not because a fucking book tells you how to feel or how to think, but what YOU think. We love reading quotes and articles - that are hand in hand with your personal argument - but the quotes from a text shouldn't BE your argument; not being told read this, this is exactly how I feel and what I think.

I dont want you to compile texts. I don't want you to feel an obligation to teach or whatnot. What I do ask, to have a CONVERSATION, a DISCUSSION;
Do you have personal experience with this? Perhaps certain things in this realm compelled you to become a teacher in this field? Did the racism towards Asians that came up during WW2 and resurfaced during the Korean and Vietnam wars affect you or your family?

Also, in reality, this is the same issue with certain American sports teams. The Washington Redskins and the Cleveland Indians. The Redskins, because, well, the name Redskin is racist, and the Indians because their alternate logo is Chief Wahoo, a 30's era racist stereotyped logo. So what i am getting at is i feel it is just as inappropriate to wear blackface en masse, whether for "innocent" reasons or not, as it is inappropriate for these teams fans to dress in redface, at the games or anywhere else.

http://media2.fdncms.com/clevescene/imager/the-curse-of-chief-wahoo/u/zoom/2954433/cover-8.jpg

This fucking guy is actually arguing with a Native American about how what he is wearing is not offensive.
http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Rodriguez3.png
http://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/indians.jpg?w=1000
http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/TVMcWisgbpRuLT76nOYE8A--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3NfbGVnbztxPTg1O3c9NjMw/http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/sports/2014-04-07/f2432ed0-bea4-11e3-91d0-5b847a710af7_savagesmascottoon2002.jpg

"We've been divided, we've been bled,
Like a chicken without a head.
Running frantically amuck
Taking but not giving a fuck."

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z18/ickmcwang/ickmcwang.gif

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

In a recent survey, over 90% of Native Americans don't care what sports teams are named.

As it turns out, they care more about the coal-burning power plants built on the borders of their territory, toxic waste dumping, oil companies fracking underneath them, and trigger-happy federal agents shooting them, among many other things.

I think that's my chief gripe about arguing about offensive language and microaggressions.  It distracts us and prevents us from talking about...  macroaggressions(?).  Sure, it might hurt my feelings when people portray my ancestry in a negative light, but it would hurt my feelings more if my family died from mercury poisoning.

Also, Bob Marley is half white.  His father was a white guy with some Jewish ancestry.  It just shows that the reality of life is much too complicated to be able to compartmentalize everyone into groups for superficial reasons.

My internet is awful and I'm sharing it.  If you're waiting on me to seed something, be patient; I'll do my best.

"I will never bow down to another man even when everyone's saying I've sinned."  - Toh Kay

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

BloozEhouNd wrote:

In a recent survey, over 90% of Native Americans don't care what sports teams are named.

That survey has been blown apart by pretty much every group that gives a shit other than Daniel Snyder's Crusade to keep the Holy Redskin name.

"We've been divided, we've been bled,
Like a chicken without a head.
Running frantically amuck
Taking but not giving a fuck."

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z18/ickmcwang/ickmcwang.gif

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

Ick McWang wrote:
BloozEhouNd wrote:

In a recent survey, over 90% of Native Americans don't care what sports teams are named.

That survey has been blown apart by pretty much every group that gives a shit other than Daniel Snyder's Crusade to keep the Holy Redskin name.

That's really not relevant to the main thrust of my post and, in fact, drives the point home.  While everyone else is arguing about what they think about sports teams, they're breathing coal smoke, drinking poisoned water, and being shot by federal agents.  Sports team names aren't really part of the immediate agenda because sports teams aren't actively killing them.

My internet is awful and I'm sharing it.  If you're waiting on me to seed something, be patient; I'll do my best.

"I will never bow down to another man even when everyone's saying I've sinned."  - Toh Kay

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

BloozEhouNd wrote:
Ick McWang wrote:
BloozEhouNd wrote:

In a recent survey, over 90% of Native Americans don't care what sports teams are named.

That survey has been blown apart by pretty much every group that gives a shit other than Daniel Snyder's Crusade to keep the Holy Redskin name.

That's really not relevant to the main thrust of my post and, in fact, drives the point home.  While everyone else is arguing about what they think about sports teams, they're breathing coal smoke, drinking poisoned water, and being shot by federal agents.  Sports team names aren't really part of the immediate agenda because sports teams aren't actively killing them.

Some of that may depend on where you are from. I am from Tampa, and the Seminole are doing just fine, thank you. Matter of fact they are just now undergoing a huge expansion of their casino grounds. What happens in the west/midwest is not what happens in the southeast. Correct me if I am wrong

Hell I agree with much of what you have posted, but dont quote that Washington Post bought and paid for 90% vote, cmon man. Thats the only reason I responded

"We've been divided, we've been bled,
Like a chicken without a head.
Running frantically amuck
Taking but not giving a fuck."

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z18/ickmcwang/ickmcwang.gif

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

A fish? hmm

BloozEhouNd wrote:
Ick McWang wrote:
BloozEhouNd wrote:

In a recent survey, over 90% of Native Americans don't care what sports teams are named.

That survey has been blown apart by pretty much every group that gives a shit other than Daniel Snyder's Crusade to keep the Holy Redskin name.

That's really not relevant to the main thrust of my post and, in fact, drives the point home.  While everyone else is arguing about what they think about sports teams, they're breathing coal smoke, drinking poisoned water, and being shot by federal agents.  Sports team names aren't really part of the immediate agenda because sports teams aren't actively killing them.

I get this, in my first post I said that the Black and White minstrel show was seen as harmless fun, and it was just considered family entertainment. It was also on at a time when the National front were baying for blood in the streets, attacking men, women, children and anyone with a heavy suntan (I shit you not). My community was almost totally white, but I had black friends and they were more worried about the very real threat of physical violence than the mild patronising of a weekend TV show
Compared to this very real threat, the musical antics of bunch of performers didn't even blip on the racism scale, especially coming from a profession where men dressed as women, women dressed as men, or either would don a costume to suit whatever music they were performing, singing songs from black history they were hardly going to dress as pantomime horses.
Back at the time, racism was (pardon the expression) a lot more black and white. You were either racist or you weren't, well meaning "accidental" racism only became a thing many years later.
I get that times have changed, and it's unacceptable now, but those were different times, retrospective racism just creates a whole new bunch of victims.

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

49 (edited by ℊnat 2016-06-07 11:48:18)

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

Ick McWang wrote:

Gnat, you are coming across a tad harsh bro. This isnt troll

Okay, first ...it is not my style to be complaisant when someone comes in to a thread and essentially accuses me and others of being racists, or at the very least, ignorant and insensitive. I do not take kindly to that. Just because you like to be diplomatic doesn't make you right and it doesn't make me a troll. In fact, we were being trolled. (You did read the part where he was being belligerent and saying "fuck you" to me, right? )

It is also really unfair of you to imply that we were ganging up on this person or in some way attacking them just because of the order in which our posts occurred. This is the way a forum works. Person A makes inflammatory and accusatory post. Person B reads the post, responds. Person C reads the post, responds. Person D, etc... At any point , Person A could have stepped in and responded, but perhaps they couldn't or did not wish too.

Is every person after the one who happens to make the initial response supposed to wait for feedback before putting their two cents in, or else risk being accused of ganging up and attacking someone? Or do people simply speak in the natural order of events, in whatever tone is appropriate and proportional to the manner in which they were spoken to?

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

50 (edited by ℊnat 2016-06-07 12:14:29)

Re: I'd like to get your take on this POS..."Blacking Up"

Ick McWang wrote:

Like, really, do we even have to ask ourselves if dressing in blackface is ok or appropriate?

Yeah, I think we should. I think we should be able to question everything. Just as a thought exercise if for no other reason. If your original opinion is justified, you will only strengthen your case. If it isn't, you still win because you have exposed yourself to a new, better way of thinking about a particular issue. I've lost count of the times I've adjusted my opinion on things. That isn't weakness, it is the essence of intellectual strength. If I have to again by the end of this conversation, so be it.

So, as I said in my first post, what is it exactly that is racist about dressing up as someone of another race? If a white kid wanted to be Aladdin for Halloween, or a black kid wanted to be He-Man...is it racist for them to want their physical attributes to match someone elses?

If a sports team wants to have a caricature of a historically relevant figure from their geographic region as a mascot, what is the inherent harm in that? Isn't it simply that the focus on a certain demographic presents an opportunity for someone who is already a racist to project their prejudices upon that caricature? Perfect example is the fat man from Icks cartoon writing "savage" on his stomach. Now THAT is racist.

Look at WVU's mascot. It's a caricature of a mountain person. He wears buckskins, a coonskin cap, and carries a rifle. I'm not offended by that. If someone came to a game dressed up in that way with "go, degenerate drunken inbreds, go!" written on their chest , maybe I would be.

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana