Re: punk rock and PC culture

Exactly what gnat said is what I mean, a couple of years ago a mate killed himself, he was openly gay and used to go along with the jokes, but it hurt him, I'm not saying that's why he killed himself, but words can hurt, just cause some one is laughing on the outside doesn't mean it's all well and good inside.
And yea when we're in a closer bunch of mates we make throwaway comments too, but even then it's just being respectful as Guana said when the time calls for it, constant name calling and joking can really get to people no matter how thick skinned they are when there back on there own in a bad space.

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Re: punk rock and PC culture

It seems we are all essentially saying the same thing from various angles more or less i mean it go without saying that the extent of the piss taking when in a group in public is less abrasive than in a group in private, it's still very cutting in public though..as we all admit to to one extent or another.Over the years i would say every one of my mates including myself has took one another to one side and asked them to ease up if somethings too close to the bone, and of course a certain amount of common sense comes into play, our own brand of humour isn't homophobic nor racist unless tongue in cheek in nature.
Take sexism for example if i'm or anyone is having a good ol rant about there mrs calling her all the names under the sun as all men are known to do when drinking with friends just venting off steam and a person across the room takes offence am i then meant too apoligise and cease and desist? I think some opinions expressed need to be clarified as one individuals idea of too much is quite different from anothers, it's easy to say that there is a line in the sand where good taste or bad taste is dictated and it shouldn't be crossed but to my mind a little bit common sense needs to be directed in both ways..i'm mixed race(read heinz57) and if a group of casper lookalikes across the room are calling eachother racist names across the room from me i couldnt give two hoots now if i'm sat across the room with a sign around my neck saying my grandad was black and there doing the same thing after telling me my sign looks smashing that's a different matter all together..maybe we should as a collective apply some of the common sense we claim to have, that goes for the offenders and offendees lol.

Edit...
So there across the room from me everybody get that haha?

Re: punk rock and PC culture

Norwood wrote:

Exactly what gnat said is what I mean, a couple of years ago a mate killed himself, he was openly gay and used to go along with the jokes, but it hurt him, I'm not saying that's why he killed himself, but words can hurt, just cause some one is laughing on the outside doesn't mean it's all well and good inside.
And yea when we're in a closer bunch of mates we make throwaway comments too, but even then it's just being respectful as Guana said when the time calls for it, constant name calling and joking can really get to people no matter how thick skinned they are when there back on there own in a bad space.

At work we're a disgusting bunch of fuckers, there are very few taboo subjects and most of the time we're ripping the piss out of each other, wives and kids included (within reason) but our cleaner is a lovely woman, a grandmother, she's a Salford lass so she's pretty rum herself but we tone things right down when she's in, some of the lads don't give a fuck though and get worse when she's about, I've asked her many times if she's ok with it or if she wants me to have a word with the pricks and she's always said she's fine. She just cracked one day and broke down in floods of tears, she thought she could laugh it off but eventually it got too much for her and messed her up big time, she started avoiding the worst offenders and her job suffered. I know it's the things end of the wedge compared to your mates suicide but I totally get the situation. No-one wants to come across as being sensitive and spoiling the "fun" for others.
I don't really get Chisox' example though, there's a massive difference between pointing out that someone's different to everybody else and pointing out that you're the same as everyone else in the room.

Howling wrote:

Take sexism for example if i'm or anyone is having a good ol rant about there mrs calling her all the names under the sun as all men are known to do when drinking with friends just venting off steam and a person across the room takes offence am i then meant too apoligise and cease and desist?

Not at all, if you're having a jokey conversation about a personals subject it's fuck all to do with anyone else, if you're talking about playing football with a dead baby and someone in the room has just buried theirs then yeah, you're out of order.
Like you said, both sides need to show a bit of common sense

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

Re: punk rock and PC culture

I know I'm late to the conversation, but I don't think anyone is arguing that people shouldn't try to be considerate of others.

The problem is the entitlement many of these people feel towards the world.  They are writing laws to try to prevent people from being offended.  That's what is going on right now.  I mean, there are literally college campuses that are treating students for PTSD because some of their students encountered Trump campaign stickers.

This is insane.  You cannot guarantee people the right to not be offended unless it comes as a package deal with a lobotomy.

This isn't an issue of whining about whiners.  It's an issue of freedom.  When whiners begin to dictate policy and feel justified in enforcing their values with violence, there's a problem.  If you don't want someone dancing next to you in a public space, THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM, NOT THEIRS.  YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO PHYSICALLY ASSAULT SOMEONE IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THEIR DANCING.  Freedom means that people are allowed to dance in public places whenever they want.   Having one person decide when other people may dance is not freedom.  Enforcing dancing rules with violence is not freedom.  "Whining" about people that are taking away your freedom is not something that should be dismissed so casually.

This is a growing problem with the "Left" that is most easily observable in college-age activists and large portions of modern feminism.  They are trying, and succeeding, in creating public policy based upon censorship and original sin.  Seriously, it's the exact same agenda that the religious right was pushing in the 80s and early 90s.  It's fucking eery.

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Re: punk rock and PC culture

Where the heck does it say in any lawbook that you are guaranteed the right to dance in a public space, especially if that dancing is PHYSICALLY hurting others?
Christ, there's volumes of shit you cannot do in a public space.
Public spaces aren't free-for-all's, dude. Lol.
You literally have the right to passage, assembly through invitation or not, to buy and to sell... That's about it.
(Feel free to correct me if wrong).

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Re: punk rock and PC culture

BloozEhouNd wrote:

I know I'm late to the conversation, but I don't think anyone is arguing that people shouldn't try to be considerate of others.

The problem is the entitlement many of these people feel towards the world.  They are writing laws to try to prevent people from being offended.  That's what is going on right now.  I mean, there are literally college campuses that are treating students for PTSD because some of their students encountered Trump campaign stickers.

This is insane.  You cannot guarantee people the right to not be offended unless it comes as a package deal with a lobotomy.

This isn't an issue of whining about whiners.  It's an issue of freedom.  When whiners begin to dictate policy and feel justified in enforcing their values with violence, there's a problem.  If you don't want someone dancing next to you in a public space, THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM, NOT THEIRS.  YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO PHYSICALLY ASSAULT SOMEONE IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THEIR DANCING.  Freedom means that people are allowed to dance in public places whenever they want.   Having one person decide when other people may dance is not freedom.  Enforcing dancing rules with violence is not freedom.  "Whining" about people that are taking away your freedom is not something that should be dismissed so casually.

This is a growing problem with the "Left" that is most easily observable in college-age activists and large portions of modern feminism.  They are trying, and succeeding, in creating public policy based upon censorship and original sin.  Seriously, it's the exact same agenda that the religious right was pushing in the 80s and early 90s.  It's fucking eery.

Never met a feminist I liked.

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Re: punk rock and PC culture

addicted wrote:

Where the heck does it say in any lawbook that you are guaranteed the right to dance in a public space, especially if that dancing is PHYSICALLY hurting others?
Christ, there's volumes of shit you cannot do in a public space.
Public spaces aren't free-for-all's, dude. Lol.
You literally have the right to passage, assembly through invitation or not, to buy and to sell... That's about it.
(Feel free to correct me if wrong).

Dancing is a means of creative expression, so it is protected by the First Amendment in the U.S.

I get the gist of what you're saying; there are limits to what freedom of speech protects.  I agree that if you started moshing at a crowded crosswalk, that's not okay.  So, the question is, where's the line?

I think it's entirely dependent upon context.  Within the context of the front row of a rock concert, you're an idiot if you think you have the right to not be touched or jostled (no, this is not a carte blanche for sexual assault).  By delineating a personal space in this context, you are actively denying other people the chance to be in the front row.  That's not okay.  If you need more personal space than the other patrons, it falls upon you to find a less-crowded part of the venue.

A subway car during rush hour is another good example.  If a car is more crowded than you feel comfortable with, the burden of action falls upon you to wait for a less crowded car or find an alternative means of transportation.  It is entirely unreasonable to board a crowded car and expect all the other passengers to crowd together more tightly in order to give you more space than they have.

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Re: punk rock and PC culture

Also, this:

(I apologize in advance if you are offended by people joking about urinary tract obstructions)

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Re: punk rock and PC culture

At the end of the day it comes down to people dance kinda violently at punk shows and if you don't like it, go somewhere else.

"I pop punk, not pills"

Re: punk rock and PC culture

chisox100 wrote:

At the end of the day it comes down to people dance kinda violently at punk shows and if you don't like it, go somewhere else.

Sorry, not having that.
I've taken my missus and my kids to these gigs, I've stood next to mates who've just crawled out of hospital after smashing themselves up on bikes, and you're saying if they're not prepared to get hurt they shouldn't be there? Just because some giddy prick can't conduct themselves in public? and we're supposed to be a culture based on mutual respect and understanding? At least with each other.
What percentage of people at these gigs don't go just to dive into the pit and slam about? 70? 80? It's definitely the majority anyway, that's why we keep that shit contained, nicely at the front, surrounded by a ring of people happy to let you bounce off them and just shove you back where you bounced from, just remember there's a place for it, it isn't open season right round the whole venue and fuck anyone who doesn't like it.

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Re: punk rock and PC culture

Right, but if you're telling everyone else in the front row of a rock show that they can't dance, you're the arsehole.

I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with your position.  You didn't try to take your kids to the front row, did you?  You understand that going to a rock concert is *NOT* a passive experience.  You don't get to just sit in the front row without any disturbances as if you're watching TV at home in your easy chair.

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62 (edited by chisox100 2016-04-25 13:47:54)

Re: punk rock and PC culture

Correction: At the end of the day it comes down to people dance kinda violently at punk shows and if you don't like it, don't stand in the front.

Also, welcome back Guana, I missed my angry online uncle-like figure

"I pop punk, not pills"
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Re: punk rock and PC culture

chisox100 wrote:

Correction: At the end of the day it comes down to people dance kinda violently at punk shows and if you don't like it, don't stand in the front.

Also, welcome back Guana, I missed my angry online uncle-like figure

You missed your favorite uncles birthday again, bad Chisox.
But (with the correction) I agree 100%, it's bad enough that venues are smoke free, and policed to fuck because the lightweights wouldn't adapt and just had the places made more appealing to all without us doing the same to gigs.
@ BloozEhouNd. Anyone I've ever taken to a gig (not just my kids, anyone who doesn't know what to expect) gets told that the front is a bit dangerous if they're not expecting it. But if they hang around the back or near the bar they'll be fine, my eldest wanted to get right to the front when I first took her, she knew what it was like and was happy to take the risk, turns out she was safer there than anywhere else, bunch of random skins surrounded her and if anyone bounced toward her they just bounced them back. Even though it isn't always the case I like to think we look after our own.
I don't want to see the return to the old days where bottles would come arcing in or some fucker landed on your table and trashed your drinks. It was like the wild west, I loved it but would never have taken the family.

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Re: punk rock and PC culture

One of the first punk shows I went to, a guy jumped off this huge amp and basically kneed me in the face. My glasses got knocked into the middle of the pit and I found the remains afterwards. I learned something that day though

http://i.imgur.com/rBccX7c.jpg

Don't wear glasses in that kind of environment. And you don't really need to see all that well to have a good time.

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

Re: punk rock and PC culture

Guana wrote:

it's bad enough that venues are smoke free, and policed to fuck because the lightweights wouldn't adapt and just had the places made more appealing to all without us doing the same to gigs.

Are you saying people should be able to smoke inside at shows? Im a huge fan of a nice home rolled cig and some live music but even at DIY shows with no rules I refrain from doing it inside. People with asthma have a right to enjoy the show too.

"I pop punk, not pills"

Re: punk rock and PC culture

chisox100 wrote:
Guana wrote:

it's bad enough that venues are smoke free, and policed to fuck because the lightweights wouldn't adapt and just had the places made more appealing to all without us doing the same to gigs.

Are you saying people should be able to smoke inside at shows? Im a huge fan of a nice home rolled cig and some live music but even at DIY shows with no rules I refrain from doing it inside. People with asthma have a right to enjoy the show too.

I can recall plenty of gigs where I've missed something good because I've been huddled in a pissy shelter smoking a cig with all the other outcasts, I've got back in and found I've lost my table, or had my drink (which I couldn't take out with me) stolen, or I've missed the start of the set I've paid to see.
I can't recall a single gig that was ruined by a shortage of asthmatics wheezing away in the pit or sucking noisily on their inhalers between tracks.
With all due respect to people with asthma, if they don't like it, sit near a fucking window and think yourself lucky that the vast amount of tax I pay on my baccy funds your medication.

I mean, c'mon, we're moaning in the PC punk thread about people who want to go to gigs but want them changed into an experience they personally enjoy more, fuck that, if there's that much of a backlash against smokey rooms then you don't take them over and destroy what's there, you make your own smoke free environment and have gigs there instead, but that didn't happen, and why not? Because no fucker would go there, smoke free bars popped up in this country many times before the smoking ban, and popped back down again because no-one bothered with them, the pub industry in the UK is pretty much on its arse because of the ban, all the people who said they'd go out more if it was smoke free stay at home and don't bother, all the smokers stay at home so they can drink and smoke to their hearts content without contracting pneumonia and you end up with a big bunch of empty clubs. And what's worse, is they're empty pubs and clubs that stink of piss and sweat and fart-gas because there's no tobacco masking it.

I don't have asthma, but as a kid I had really fucked up hay fever, can you imagine what it's like in a country like ours with all it's parks and gardens and countryside and I couldn't visit any of it? I didn't go to these places, but I certainly didn't demand that they rip up the flowerbeds, tear down the trees and tarmac the rest of it because it was my right to visit these attractions like everyone else, I stuck with activities that didn't swell my eyes shut to watery slits and got on with it.

Where we going with this? Protect the asthmatics by banning pets, greenery, dust, exhaust fumes, chemical odours? When in reality, the majority of them drive, own dogs which they walk in the park and scrub their ovens with Cillit Bang, well fuck 'em, they can suck up my smoke or stay at fuckin home.

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Re: punk rock and PC culture

Here's your mic back, Guana. I think you just dropped it.

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

Re: punk rock and PC culture

gnat wrote:

Here's your mic back, Guana. I think you just dropped it.

I'm trying to be a nicer person too, this place just brings out my bad side sad

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Fuckin sex pistols mad

Re: punk rock and PC culture

Smokers are better people than non-smokers.  They're more friendly, more willing to share, and more enjoyable to spend time with.  Smoking bans are a clear indicator that everyone knows this to be true.  As Guana pointed out, these laws were passed because non-smoking bars were completely unable to compete with smoking bars.  By passing the law, they're demanding the right to hang out with the smokers, but stopping them from doing the thing that makes them who they are.

On the plus side, I never spend 4 to 10 times the market rate for alcohol anymore.

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Re: punk rock and PC culture

BloozEhouNd wrote:

Smokers are better people than non-smokers.  They're more friendly, more willing to share, and more enjoyable to spend time with.  Smoking bans are a clear indicator that everyone knows this to be true.  As Guana pointed out, these laws were passed because non-smoking bars were completely unable to compete with smoking bars.  By passing the law, they're demanding the right to hang out with the smokers, but stopping them from doing the thing that makes them who they are.

On the plus side, I never spend 4 to 10 times the market rate for alcohol anymore.


LOL times a fucking thousand................................+1 What a fuckin statement..

Re: punk rock and PC culture

Guana wrote:

I can recall plenty of gigs where I've missed something good because I've been huddled in a pissy shelter smoking a cig with all the other outcasts, I've got back in and found I've lost my table, or had my drink (which I couldn't take out with me) stolen, or I've missed the start of the set I've paid to see.

That's the price you pay for the addiction to a non-essential substance.

I can't recall a single gig that was ruined by a shortage of asthmatics wheezing away in the pit or sucking noisily on their inhalers between tracks.
With all due respect to people with asthma, if they don't like it, sit near a fucking window and think yourself lucky that the vast amount of tax I pay on my baccy funds your medication.

Two of my closest friends are huge fans of punk but they don't come with me to DIY shows because they're asthmatic and every DIY show is smokier than Berlin in 1945. Also, maybe its an architectural thing in Chicago but 99% of DIY shows are in garages or basements, neither of which usually have windows to air the place out.


I don't have asthma, but as a kid I had really fucked up hay fever, can you imagine what it's like in a country like ours with all it's parks and gardens and countryside and I couldn't visit any of it? I didn't go to these places, but I certainly didn't demand that they rip up the flowerbeds, tear down the trees and tarmac the rest of it because it was my right to visit these attractions like everyone else, I stuck with activities that didn't swell my eyes shut to watery slits and got on with it.

But plants and pollen are necessary for the world to exist, cigarettes are not.


I say all this as im sitting at work wishing I could have a cigarette. There's a time and place for them and I think it should be limited to outside only.

"I pop punk, not pills"

72 (edited by ℊnat 2016-05-06 23:12:49)

Re: punk rock and PC culture

That's the price you pay for the addiction to a non-essential substance.

Got to admit chisox, that made me cringe.
How do you even know he's addicted?
I smoked everyday for years and wasn't addicted in the least. I did it because I enjoyed it.

Are you saying habits shouldn't be accomodated if they aren't essential?
What about public breastfeeding? That's certainly not essential these days, and it does offend a sizeable population. (At least in the US)

What about essential habits that places go out of their way to limit or restrict?
Like eating, drinking, bathing, sleeping, procreating, etc?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, your use of non-essential is problematic.

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

Re: punk rock and PC culture

gnat wrote:

That's the price you pay for the addiction to a non-essential substance.

Got to admit chisox, that made me cringe.
How do you even know he's addicted?
I smoked everyday for years and wasn't addicted in the least. I did it because I enjoyed it.

Are you saying habits shouldn't be accomodated if they aren't essential?
What about public breastfeeding? That's certainly not essential these days, and it does offend a sizeable population. (At least in the US)

What about essential habits that places go out of their way to limit or restrict?
Like eating, drinking, bathing, sleeping, procreating, etc?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, your use of non-essential is problematic.

Well said gnat, although i'd say it just makes you sound like a great bellend chisox.

Re: punk rock and PC culture

Lol, gotta agree with Bloozehound Gnat and H on this one, you can't complain that my non essential activity is ruining your non essential activity. Fair enough in a restaurant or doctors waiting room, but a gig you've chosen to go to?
As I said, if there was a market for smoke free venues there would be both, but there isn't, so they fucked it up for everyone except the fluffy pink lunged health freaks.
And while trees and plants are essential to life on earth, the planet got by OK without fuckin English country gardens for a long time.
Flowers are cunts basically.
And yes, I am addicted, but going off your logic, that's my right!

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
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Re: punk rock and PC culture

gnat wrote:

That's the price you pay for the addiction to a non-essential substance.

Got to admit chisox, that made me cringe.
How do you even know he's addicted?
I smoked everyday for years and wasn't addicted in the least. I did it because I enjoyed it.

Are you saying habits shouldn't be accomodated if they aren't essential?
What about public breastfeeding? That's certainly not essential these days, and it does offend a sizeable population. (At least in the US)

What about essential habits that places go out of their way to limit or restrict?
Like eating, drinking, bathing, sleeping, procreating, etc?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, your use of non-essential is problematic.

I don't think breast feeding is a good comparison given the completely different nature of the two.

Isnt this the same argument conservatives use on everything in our country? For example: If we allow the gays to get married and thus create a fluid definition of marriage, next they'll be demanded polygamy or bestiality.

"I pop punk, not pills"