Re: punk rock and PC culture

Guana wrote:

NOFX can go sit near a fuckin window too. hmm

I remember reading years ago that you couldn't advertise for bar staff and stipulate "smokers only" but you can discriminate against smokers in an ad, that's fucked.
I still say there's a strong enough case for separate smoking and non-smoking venues, we all still get freedom of choice and the competition it created would result in better entertainment and more realistic alcohol prices, now they've got us all in the same corner they can fuck us over all at once.

Illinois law was smoking and non-smoking sections in restaurants for most of my lifetime. You ended up with the non-smoking sections packed and the smoking sections empty so most places voluntarily gave up indoor smoking before it was banned. I guess its just a much different culture here. In my two trips to Europe I noticed much larger percent of the population smokes so these kind of rules effect more people than it does in the US.

"I pop punk, not pills"

Re: punk rock and PC culture

gnat wrote:

should probably do away with the alcohol and loud music, too. Wouldn't want anyone developing a drinking problem or hearing loss.

The way things are going in the world? I wouldn't be surprised. It will turn into those old 50's "shows", where everyone sits in a seat and watches the show, and claps politely. As it is, just to go to the NOFX show a month ago, I had to go through 2 metal detectors and a brief patdown, I mean am I going to a show or in the TSA line at the airport?

And speaking of that show, there was NO REENTRY so it was smokey as a forest fire in there. Its the first no reentry show I have been to in many years, pretty much since the smoking laws changed. The smoke didnt seem to bother NOFX then. Hell even Hefe said on stage, "man all i can smell is B.O., cigarettes, and pot smoke"

"We've been divided, we've been bled,
Like a chicken without a head.
Running frantically amuck
Taking but not giving a fuck."

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z18/ickmcwang/ickmcwang.gif

Re: punk rock and PC culture

chisox100 wrote:

Illinois law was smoking and non-smoking sections in restaurants for most of my lifetime. You ended up with the non-smoking sections packed and the smoking sections empty so most places voluntarily gave up indoor smoking before it was banned.

I am totally, 100% okay with this.  The person operating the establishment voluntarily chose whether to allow smoking or not.  That is freedom!

Not allowing any establishment to allow smoking, though, is NOT freedom.

If a venue wants to disallow moshing, that's okay.

If the government wants to disallow all venues from having moshing, that's not okay.

Free choice may end up leading to many of the same behaviors as compulsory law, but the point isn't the outcome, it's the choice.

My internet is awful and I'm sharing it.  If you're waiting on me to seed something, be patient; I'll do my best.

"I will never bow down to another man even when everyone's saying I've sinned."  - Toh Kay

104

Re: punk rock and PC culture

Ick McWang wrote:
gnat wrote:

should probably do away with the alcohol and loud music, too. Wouldn't want anyone developing a drinking problem or hearing loss.

The way things are going in the world? I wouldn't be surprised. It will turn into those old 50's "shows", where everyone sits in a seat and watches the show, and claps politely. As it is, just to go to the NOFX show a month ago, I had to go through 2 metal detectors and a brief patdown, I mean am I going to a show or in the TSA line at the airport?

And speaking of that show, there was NO REENTRY so it was smokey as a forest fire in there. Its the first no reentry show I have been to in many years, pretty much since the smoking laws changed. The smoke didnt seem to bother NOFX then. Hell even Hefe said on stage, "man all i can smell is B.O., cigarettes, and pot smoke"

hey, no piss smell ...thats winning in my book

How about a venue that bans cell phones and requires alcohol consumption? Get to work on this, free market.

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

Re: punk rock and PC culture

gnat wrote:
Ick McWang wrote:
gnat wrote:

should probably do away with the alcohol and loud music, too. Wouldn't want anyone developing a drinking problem or hearing loss.

The way things are going in the world? I wouldn't be surprised. It will turn into those old 50's "shows", where everyone sits in a seat and watches the show, and claps politely. As it is, just to go to the NOFX show a month ago, I had to go through 2 metal detectors and a brief patdown, I mean am I going to a show or in the TSA line at the airport?

And speaking of that show, there was NO REENTRY so it was smokey as a forest fire in there. Its the first no reentry show I have been to in many years, pretty much since the smoking laws changed. The smoke didnt seem to bother NOFX then. Hell even Hefe said on stage, "man all i can smell is B.O., cigarettes, and pot smoke"

hey, no piss smell ...thats winning in my book

How about a venue that bans cell phones and requires alcohol consumption? Get to work on this, free market.

Now that is something we can agree on.

"We've been divided, we've been bled,
Like a chicken without a head.
Running frantically amuck
Taking but not giving a fuck."

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z18/ickmcwang/ickmcwang.gif

106

Re: punk rock and PC culture

chisox100 wrote:
Guana wrote:

NOFX can go sit near a fuckin window too. hmm

I remember reading years ago that you couldn't advertise for bar staff and stipulate "smokers only" but you can discriminate against smokers in an ad, that's fucked.
I still say there's a strong enough case for separate smoking and non-smoking venues, we all still get freedom of choice and the competition it created would result in better entertainment and more realistic alcohol prices, now they've got us all in the same corner they can fuck us over all at once.

Illinois law was smoking and non-smoking sections in restaurants for most of my lifetime. You ended up with the non-smoking sections packed and the smoking sections empty so most places voluntarily gave up indoor smoking before it was banned. I guess its just a much different culture here. In my two trips to Europe I noticed much larger percent of the population smokes so these kind of rules effect more people than it does in the US.

I really couldn't say, smoking has been pushed so far underground that it's impossible to gauge how popular or unpopular it is nowadays.
Smoking sections are always going to be emptier because people go there to smoke then leave again to rejoin whatever event is happening.
But let's forget about gigs for a moment, a non smoking gig I can handle, the real crux of the matter for me is local pubs, the pub industry in the UK is on it's arse, the smoking ban decimated the customer base, many smokers I know would rather sit at home drinking cheap supermarket lager, the pink lungs who didn't go to pubs in the first place still don't go despite predictions that smoke free pubs would fill up with these health freaks, pubs shut down, drinkers migrate to other pubs, it kicks off regularly, more people stay at home to avoid the troubles, drink prices go up, more pubs shut down and the cycle continues.
Coincidentally, the first pub I ever managed to get served in closed its doors last night for the last time, another of my favouritel locals stands empty and is due to be bulldozed in the next couple of months, pubs were the hub of the community for years and now they're on the way out, the trendy bars in city centre still thrive but fuck 'em, poles apart from what we've lost.

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

Re: punk rock and PC culture

Guana wrote:
chisox100 wrote:
Guana wrote:

NOFX can go sit near a fuckin window too. hmm

I remember reading years ago that you couldn't advertise for bar staff and stipulate "smokers only" but you can discriminate against smokers in an ad, that's fucked.
I still say there's a strong enough case for separate smoking and non-smoking venues, we all still get freedom of choice and the competition it created would result in better entertainment and more realistic alcohol prices, now they've got us all in the same corner they can fuck us over all at once.

Illinois law was smoking and non-smoking sections in restaurants for most of my lifetime. You ended up with the non-smoking sections packed and the smoking sections empty so most places voluntarily gave up indoor smoking before it was banned. I guess its just a much different culture here. In my two trips to Europe I noticed much larger percent of the population smokes so these kind of rules effect more people than it does in the US.

I really couldn't say, smoking has been pushed so far underground that it's impossible to gauge how popular or unpopular it is nowadays.
Smoking sections are always going to be emptier because people go there to smoke then leave again to rejoin whatever event is happening.
But let's forget about gigs for a moment, a non smoking gig I can handle, the real crux of the matter for me is local pubs, the pub industry in the UK is on it's arse, the smoking ban decimated the customer base, many smokers I know would rather sit at home drinking cheap supermarket lager, the pink lungs who didn't go to pubs in the first place still don't go despite predictions that smoke free pubs would fill up with these health freaks, pubs shut down, drinkers migrate to other pubs, it kicks off regularly, more people stay at home to avoid the troubles, drink prices go up, more pubs shut down and the cycle continues.
Coincidentally, the first pub I ever managed to get served in closed its doors last night for the last time, another of my favouritel locals stands empty and is due to be bulldozed in the next couple of months, pubs were the hub of the community for years and now they're on the way out, the trendy bars in city centre still thrive but fuck 'em, poles apart from what we've lost.

So what makes a pub a pub and a trendy bar a trendy bar besides the atmosphere?

"I pop punk, not pills"

Re: punk rock and PC culture

chisox100 wrote:
Guana wrote:
chisox100 wrote:

Illinois law was smoking and non-smoking sections in restaurants for most of my lifetime. You ended up with the non-smoking sections packed and the smoking sections empty so most places voluntarily gave up indoor smoking before it was banned. I guess its just a much different culture here. In my two trips to Europe I noticed much larger percent of the population smokes so these kind of rules effect more people than it does in the US.

I really couldn't say, smoking has been pushed so far underground that it's impossible to gauge how popular or unpopular it is nowadays.
Smoking sections are always going to be emptier because people go there to smoke then leave again to rejoin whatever event is happening.
But let's forget about gigs for a moment, a non smoking gig I can handle, the real crux of the matter for me is local pubs, the pub industry in the UK is on it's arse, the smoking ban decimated the customer base, many smokers I know would rather sit at home drinking cheap supermarket lager, the pink lungs who didn't go to pubs in the first place still don't go despite predictions that smoke free pubs would fill up with these health freaks, pubs shut down, drinkers migrate to other pubs, it kicks off regularly, more people stay at home to avoid the troubles, drink prices go up, more pubs shut down and the cycle continues.
Coincidentally, the first pub I ever managed to get served in closed its doors last night for the last time, another of my favouritel locals stands empty and is due to be bulldozed in the next couple of months, pubs were the hub of the community for years and now they're on the way out, the trendy bars in city centre still thrive but fuck 'em, poles apart from what we've lost.

So what makes a pub a pub and a trendy bar a trendy bar besides the atmosphere?

The fact you don't know only further prooves guanas point. It's lost to you a part of history and culture that even if the laws were revoked today could never be reality again.

109 (edited by kimo 2016-06-08 09:39:08)

Re: punk rock and PC culture

I remember when the smoking bans in pubs were first talked about here in Australia. All the regulars at my local pub bitched and moaned how they were going to boycott the pub and drink at home once the legislation was passed, but the day after it was enforced they were back there in the exact same seats they'd been sitting in for the past 20 years, and when they needed a smoke they got off their asses , walked the 3 metres to the outdoor smoking area, had their smoke and then came back inside and bitched about it until they needed their next smoke.
  So i don't think here at least the smoking bans really had that much impact in pubs. It's the rising cost of alcohol which has driven most people, myself included, away from the pubs.....and the increased costs can directly be attributed to the government taxing the shit out of it because they know it's a luxury a lot of people need to get through the days and can't live without......and here I can relate with the smokers because they do the exact same thing with tobacco.

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Re: punk rock and PC culture

When ever i saw clutch last in The worlds smallest venue, due to the change and banning of smoking and overcrowding the place was stricked on all fuckin fronts due to the fire hazard issues that have come along in the last few years! It used to be you could get to a place early, get your favorite stage spot and if you wanted to have ciggeratte after ciggeratte during the opening band to kill time (at least you got your moneys worth) But now nobody can move two inches let alone go outside because fighting the crowds to even have half a few puffs means spending most of the night pushing and shoving for a view rather than really enjoying any part of the concert! (Doesn't help the place had an upstairs bar that would rather have you crawl down a fire escape than walk down the stairs because of suposive helpful regulations on smoking but non what so ever on over crowding)

"If there's one thing i've learned, It's that life's just one series of curshing defeats after another until you just wished flanders was dead" -Homer simpson

Re: punk rock and PC culture

Howling wrote:
chisox100 wrote:
Guana wrote:

I really couldn't say, smoking has been pushed so far underground that it's impossible to gauge how popular or unpopular it is nowadays.
Smoking sections are always going to be emptier because people go there to smoke then leave again to rejoin whatever event is happening.
But let's forget about gigs for a moment, a non smoking gig I can handle, the real crux of the matter for me is local pubs, the pub industry in the UK is on it's arse, the smoking ban decimated the customer base, many smokers I know would rather sit at home drinking cheap supermarket lager, the pink lungs who didn't go to pubs in the first place still don't go despite predictions that smoke free pubs would fill up with these health freaks, pubs shut down, drinkers migrate to other pubs, it kicks off regularly, more people stay at home to avoid the troubles, drink prices go up, more pubs shut down and the cycle continues.
Coincidentally, the first pub I ever managed to get served in closed its doors last night for the last time, another of my favouritel locals stands empty and is due to be bulldozed in the next couple of months, pubs were the hub of the community for years and now they're on the way out, the trendy bars in city centre still thrive but fuck 'em, poles apart from what we've lost.

So what makes a pub a pub and a trendy bar a trendy bar besides the atmosphere?

The fact you don't know only further prooves guanas point. It's lost to you a part of history and culture that even if the laws were revoked today could never be reality again.

So why not explain to me?

What makes a pub a pub? And what makes it different than dive bars or saloons in America that are doing just fine in the no indoor smoking era?

"I pop punk, not pills"

Re: punk rock and PC culture

A pub is like Cheers, Chisox. Where everyone knows your name?
Dive bars are just smoky places where lonely music is played for lonely souls.
Saloons are for places where more rowdiness is required. Shots are bought. Fisticuffs ensue.

[sidenote: The show Cheers was pretty funny, Frasier was a spinoff of, well, the Frasier character and his wife Lilith form Cheers.]

"We've been divided, we've been bled,
Like a chicken without a head.
Running frantically amuck
Taking but not giving a fuck."

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z18/ickmcwang/ickmcwang.gif

Re: punk rock and PC culture

Ick McWang wrote:

A pub is like Cheers, Chisox. Where everyone knows your name?
Dive bars are just smoky places where lonely music is played for lonely souls.
Saloons are for places where more rowdiness is required. Shots are bought. Fisticuffs ensue.

[sidenote: The show Cheers was pretty funny, Frasier was a spinoff of, well, the Frasier character and his wife Lilith form Cheers.]


And without Norm

"If there's one thing i've learned, It's that life's just one series of curshing defeats after another until you just wished flanders was dead" -Homer simpson

114

Re: punk rock and PC culture

chisox100 wrote:

So what makes a pub a pub and a trendy bar a trendy bar besides the atmosphere?

Sorry Chisox, I wrote a really long reply to this question the other evening and my phone obliterated it.
But in a nutshell, Yeah, Cheers is probably the closest equivelant to a pub that I could use as an example, apart from the fact that pubs are real of course.
There are a lot of little differences too that are hard to explain, but even if I could explain all these subtle nuances, I certainly couldn't make you understand what it's like to regularly frequent an establishment that feels like a second home for well over two decades, then overnight, be forbidden to do something that has felt so natural for all that time, I've spent afternoons where there is just me and the barstaff in the whole building, and we've all stood outside in the fucking rain having a smoke, it's fucking ridiculous.
Technically, you've not been doing the whole public drinking thing for very long, I'd imagine you'd happily comply with any regulation or restrictions that are introduced, but you've got to spare a thought for people who've been kicked right out of their comfort zones after many years, it feels very personal.

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

Re: punk rock and PC culture

I guess I see what you mean. I've got my local bar i frequent. Know all the bartenders and the majority of the regulars. We all call it a dive bar though despite sounding a lot like your description of a pub. The only rules I could see them making stricter would be banning dogs from the bar but thats not quite on the same level as smoking. But I still feel like pubs going out of business cant boil down to simple the smoking ban. I feel other forces have to be at play as well.

"I pop punk, not pills"

116

Re: punk rock and PC culture

This is my uncle and first cousin. Think this would qualify as child abuse today?

http://i.imgur.com/751PoXQ.jpg

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

117

Re: punk rock and PC culture

Dude!! He's just a baby ffs.
Never let a child that age near a zippo, they break the lids off, safety matches only!

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad
Thanks: gnat1

118

Re: punk rock and PC culture

chisox100 wrote:

I guess I see what you mean. I've got my local bar i frequent. Know all the bartenders and the majority of the regulars. We all call it a dive bar though despite sounding a lot like your description of a pub. The only rules I could see them making stricter would be banning dogs from the bar but thats not quite on the same level as smoking. But I still feel like pubs going out of business cant boil down to simple the smoking ban. I feel other forces have to be at play as well.

Prices make a big difference, like everything else beer prices are always on the up, but the drop in drinkers made them jump quite badly, it just isn't worth drinking alcohol at that price in the rain.
and it always rains here.

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

Re: punk rock and PC culture

I dont go out drinking because I would rather drink at home and save the money. I can get an 18 pack of Busch beer right now for 9.99, or I can go to a bar and pay 3-4 bucks a beer for the cheap beer and 7-10 or more for the craft stuff. I pretty much only drink when I am out at a show or the rare occasion I go out with a couple friends. I would rather invite them over my house and do it that way

"We've been divided, we've been bled,
Like a chicken without a head.
Running frantically amuck
Taking but not giving a fuck."

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z18/ickmcwang/ickmcwang.gif

Re: punk rock and PC culture

Ick McWang wrote:

I dont go out drinking because I would rather drink at home and save the money. I can get an 18 pack of Busch beer right now for 9.99, or I can go to a bar and pay 3-4 bucks a beer for the cheap beer and 7-10 or more for the craft stuff. I pretty much only drink when I am out at a show or the rare occasion I go out with a couple friends. I would rather invite them over my house and do it that way

If it wasn't for the bar scene, I wouldn't have any friends at all. Lol.

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"Is that a picture of your cock on the wall?" - Gnat

And your face:
on every leaf
of every branch
of every tree.

Re: punk rock and PC culture

addicted wrote:
Ick McWang wrote:

I dont go out drinking because I would rather drink at home and save the money. I can get an 18 pack of Busch beer right now for 9.99, or I can go to a bar and pay 3-4 bucks a beer for the cheap beer and 7-10 or more for the craft stuff. I pretty much only drink when I am out at a show or the rare occasion I go out with a couple friends. I would rather invite them over my house and do it that way

If it wasn't for the bar scene, I wouldn't have any friends at all. Lol.

Yeah in my teens and 20's that was true. Now most people I hang out with are either co-workers, neighbors, or old friends from my teens and 20's that still live around here. Some of my friends still go to the bar or do the Applebee's thing, but I kinda got over that. Also I made a vow to never drive drunk again, and I am too cheap to call a cab, so I just don't bother. When I go to shows I usually ride with my man Jason who doesnt drink much or my wife drops me off/picks me up. (Luckily a lot of shows are in Ybor City - like the Pre-Fest- which is like 15 minutes from my house, not a big deal. Most shows in St. Pete, about 45 minutes away, I end up going with Jason.) I did go to the NOFX show by myself though. But the way the timing worked out and how crowded it was I wasn't getting any more than the 2 16 ounce beers I bought when I got there whether I wanted more or not.

"We've been divided, we've been bled,
Like a chicken without a head.
Running frantically amuck
Taking but not giving a fuck."

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z18/ickmcwang/ickmcwang.gif

Re: punk rock and PC culture

At the Aragon Ballroom, Chicago's biggest non-arena venue they charge $10 for 312 on tap. (312 being the generic local lager everyone who likes domestics drinks when theyre attempting to appear "cultured"). With prices like that I never touch a beer at the bigger shows. At the touristy bars in Wrigelyville and at pretty much every blues bar you're gonna get charged $7-8 for a craft beer and $5-6 for a domestic. Its crazy people get drunk on prices like that. Even if I had that kind of money thats sure as hell not how I would use it. Luckily the city's dive bars usually have most drafts for $4 which leads to me going there like once a week but it'd be dumb to go more often cause it'd get very pricey very quick.

"I pop punk, not pills"

Re: punk rock and PC culture

Ick McWang wrote:
addicted wrote:
Ick McWang wrote:

I dont go out drinking because I would rather drink at home and save the money. I can get an 18 pack of Busch beer right now for 9.99, or I can go to a bar and pay 3-4 bucks a beer for the cheap beer and 7-10 or more for the craft stuff. I pretty much only drink when I am out at a show or the rare occasion I go out with a couple friends. I would rather invite them over my house and do it that way

If it wasn't for the bar scene, I wouldn't have any friends at all. Lol.

Yeah in my teens and 20's that was true. Now most people I hang out with are either co-workers, neighbors, or old friends from my teens and 20's that still live around here. Some of my friends still go to the bar or do the Applebee's thing, but I kinda got over that. Also I made a vow to never drive drunk again, and I am too cheap to call a cab, so I just don't bother. When I go to shows I usually ride with my man Jason who doesnt drink much or my wife drops me off/picks me up. (Luckily a lot of shows are in Ybor City - like the Pre-Fest- which is like 15 minutes from my house, not a big deal. Most shows in St. Pete, about 45 minutes away, I end up going with Jason.) I did go to the NOFX show by myself though. But the way the timing worked out and how crowded it was I wasn't getting any more than the 2 16 ounce beers I bought when I got there whether I wanted more or not.

I don't drink and drive. I already have a DUI. That shit wasn't fun.
I guess, I drink a lot, but it honestly doesn't interfere with my responsibilities (anymore).
I go to class and pass, I go to work and fuckin' work. Lol. If I ain't got a dollar to drink, then I don't drink.
The majority of my friends are heavy drinkers. Everyone around here is.
It's fuckin' Pittsburgh. lol

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff173/AddictedtoOi_ep/addicted.gif

"Is that a picture of your cock on the wall?" - Gnat

And your face:
on every leaf
of every branch
of every tree.

Re: punk rock and PC culture

imazombie wrote:

maybe im getting old and just more angry but when the fuck did the punk scene get invaded by PC /SJW crowd.  i went to see not scientists and masked intruder last night.  it was in some random college townies out in the boonies in NW illinois. good place to see a punk show been/played there a bunch. show was awesome but lacked an energetic crowd. i was feeling somber after the passing of brandon and what better way then jumping around like a fool at a pop punk show.  expect the PC police wouldnt let us.  i was assualted for trying to jump around at a punk show.  i was screamed at by the blue haired whale that i need to, "back the fuck off you cis gendered scum" that i was invading her "safe space" and if i didnt stop, she was gonna "stab me in the fucking face".  i laughed and gave her a bump and kept on bouncing.

that was when her boyfriend shoved me so im like fuck yeah this guy gets it. just having fun. nope. when i shoved back he got me in a head lock and sorta hip tossed me. whatever. i try to ignore him and keep jumping around but i was grabbed by 3 lovely white knights telling me i needed to stop because i was, "upsetting her"  me jumping up and down was upsetting because someone might bump into her massive safe space dead front center of the crowd in a tiny floor space. i pretty much just laughed it all off and continued to do my thing with everyone else.

idk this is more of a rant i guess but its something ive noticed in the punk scene and it bothersome to me that this new wave pc culture mixed with punk. something i also thought as anti pc.  was wondering what others thought.  i put this in serious discussions cause i am hopping it can lead to some interesting dialogue. i feel this place is more open minded to possibly dissenting opinions then the hivemind that is /r/punk.


I think a lot of pc punkers come from the right place, but by taking someone down a peg for doing something individually that isn't intentionally discriminatory is discriminatory in itself. The term "politically correct" embodies this. To me, if I break it down, politically correct is easily defined as 'correct in the mind of a politician'. Saying you're against something that could be seen as offensive when truthfully you don't give a damn. In other words, pandering to look good to others, something every politician does, and also bs. Not real tolerance or a desire for equality. So while I think every punk community should stand against social injustice, people like the ones you ran into are just fanning the fires in another direction making matters worse, and bottom line, if you don't have anything substantial or constructive to say about injustice, its best to keep the mouth shut.

Sorry to hear about your bad show experience there. And it sounds like the "injustice" these folks were being pc about was simply other people having a good time and getting rowdy. Ridiculous, and it reminds me of something I heard about the Smashing Pumpkins being against moshing. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, and moreover if you can't stand a crowd, don't go to the show... it's happening for the people who came to move around to fast music, not sit in one place and tell others to stay away. If that's what you want, stay home and just put the record on.