Topic: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

I got as far as Sir Patrick Moore and turned the fat, misogynistic, homophobic Tory twat off and went to watch Ash vs The Evil Dead smile

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

Guana wrote:

I got as far as Sir Patrick Moore and turned the fat, misogynistic, homophobic Tory twat off and went to watch Ash vs The Evil Dead smile

Apathy at its best

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

victimofradiation wrote:
Guana wrote:

I got as far as Sir Patrick Moore and turned the fat, misogynistic, homophobic Tory twat off and went to watch Ash vs The Evil Dead smile

Apathy at its best

Lol, hardly.
I understand the gravity of the subject but there are hundreds of videos out there on the in/out referendum, I can afford to be selective about who I get my information from, I wouldn't trust a Tory to tell the truth without wrapping it in lies.
No offence.

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

I wouldn't trust a tory to even know the truth if it was wrapped round a big stick emblazoned with the words "THIS IS THE TRUTH" i pick my propaganda more wisely i like to belive.

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

A tory is like a republican, no?

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

gnat wrote:

A tory is like a republican, no?

Yes i think its very similar...,im not into politics or political propaganda either ,He was also a eurosceptic (thats why this 70s or 80s film was made i suppose) i do not support or defend patrick moor or the tories ,it just explains how the EU came into existence.Is it propaganda? judge for yourself or just skip it and criticize it,the choice is up to the free thinker. No offence Taken wink

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

Not long now, anyone decided on which way they're voting yet?

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

I've only read a little about this. Anyone care to summarize the vote and arguments from each side?

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

I'm still undecided i'm actively trying to avoid the propaganda and make an individually informed choice but theres reasons to stay and reasons to leave i'm at somewhat of a loggerhead.
And i'm not sure it could be summarized into bitesize pieces gnat..at least not by me i'm afraid.

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

The propaganda on this one is driving me mad,every time I think made my mind up one of those twats opens their mouth and makes me change my mind,.So I am trying to avoid any news at the moment and go with my gut feeling which is to remain.

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

gnat wrote:

I've only read a little about this. Anyone care to summarize the vote and arguments from each side?

I'll give it a go, but obviously I'm biased.

It's a fuckin mess mate, embarrassing.

The media have had this on their agenda for well over a decade and have been scaring dumb Brit's on a daily basis about how we're forced to take in so many immigrants that our welfare system and NHS are collapsing, (they are collapsing but it's due to a lack of funding, most immigrants come here to work, many in the NHS). They've drummed it into the thick collective heads of the nation that the EU steal all our money and dictate all our policies, that the human rights act is evil and needs ripping up and rewriting, that if we go it alone we can put the Great back into Britain.

Both campaigns are full of scaremongering, outright lies, threats and insults, anyone who has made their mind up solely from either hasn't got a clue what is really happening. The Tory's are running both the in and out campaign. Cameron and Osborne running the in, Boris Johnson and Ian Duncan Smith running the out. I've always said the old Tory edict is, if you're going to do something bad or unpopular, run the opposition, which they've been doing in as crap a manner as possible. Looking at the four key players there it's quite obvious that the two who are on their way out (Cameron and Osborne) are leading the unpopular campaign and their replacements Johnson and IDS are running the campaign that has the "man in the street" behind it, so win or lose they'll be stepping up to the big boy jobs. The public see Johnson as a lovable buffoon type character when in truth he's a very shrewd, nasty, career politician, and they know IDS from his spectacular resignation as head of the DWP because Osborne's last budget hit the public too hard, despite the fact that he's been championing savage cuts that hit the severely disabled for his entire tenure as Minister for the DWP, cuts that have been attributed to over 2000 deaths/suicides since the campaign began, and fuck knows how many that slipped under the radar because of the length of time between losing their benefits and their deaths, the DWP are firmly sitting on the figures while labour campaigners are demanding they release them.

I've been watching IDS for a while now and he is one seriously twisted psychopathic cunt, possibly one of the evilest pieces of shit to steal a living in parliament, the thought of him and Boris getting their hands on this country and it's economy really fills me with dread.
But back to the EU, it's far from perfect, and just as manipulative and full of hidden agendas as any party in this country, but they aren't the fearsome dictators telling us what to do and we're not the meek little victims we're claiming to be, The EU recently tried to drop the lesser duty rule, which would have allowed them to put higher tariffs on cheap Chinese imports, a consortium of member states overruled the act and the flood of cheap steel that's come into the UK has destroyed our steel industry, the UK led the member states that opposed the lifting of the rule, which proves that a: we can directly affect EU policy, b: the clowns that the out campaigners want running everything are not even on our side, and c: the British people are dumb as fuck because they believe the out campaign and think "it's the EU wot dunnit!"
We also fucked the EU off when they tried to give £3m to our nation's food banks, saying that Europe has no right to dictate how much we can give to our poor and needy (total amount that food banks have received from the government = £0. They're funded entirely by charities)

So we can affect the EU, as long as we're in it, whatever their plans are we are far better off being involved at the planning stage rather than being caught in the aftermath.

Trade and the economy are a worry, over 50% of our trade is through the EU, (even with countries that aren't in the EU, it still goes through it), we'll definitely lose out, Europe cannot afford for us to do anything other than sink, if we leave and we're successful then there will be a rush of countries following our lead, the EU will want us to suffer greatly and crawl back to them for a much worse deal, they will have to set an example and fuck us up big time. The pound dropped in value to its worst in a decade just because we're talking about leaving the EU, every economist worth a dry fart is saying its financial suicide, Vince Cable, the only guy to predict the 2008 recession pretty much guarantees we'll have another, only this one won't be global, it'll just be us and it will be our own fault.
The out camp's response is that those people are just scaremongering and speculating, the public seem to think that a stiff upper lip and the Dunkirk spirit will get us through and we'll be bigger and better than ever.
Assholes.

The figure £350m, has been used a lot, the out campaign reckon that's what the EU costs us a week, in reality it's much lower, Thatcher (may she rot in hell) hammered out a trade deal in the 80's that knocks about £110m off that figure, possibly the only good thing the old witch ever did. Plus the returns from the EU drop the actual amount to less than half that estimate. Undeterred by something as banal as the truth though, the out camp are still flaunting that figure round saying it's the equivalent of a brand new hospital every fortnight, as if the party that brought our health system to its knees and sold it off cheap to their wealthy backers would give a single fucking penny of anything they save back to us.
But yeah, the money we give to the EU per week is less than the amount we spend on London, and we get a hell of a lot more back. Once we’re out and we lose these bonuses it won’t just hit the economy, it will hit the pockets of the public too and we’ll have a lot less in there to start with. 90% of our workers rights come from Europe, once we’re out (and polls say it’s looking that way) the Tory government (who will then be led by unelected leaders who haven’t even produced a manifesto) will throw a lot of these rights on a big bonfire, shit we take for granted now like Maternity/Paternity leave, sick pay, paid overtime, safe working conditions will be gone, Michael Gove has already tried to fuck up the legal aid available to disgruntled workers and people in police stations and magistrates courts by slashing the number of firms “allowed” to work on these cases, they’ve changed what they can but had to drop the bulk of their plans because what they were proposing was illegal, once we’re on our own these proposals will be firmly back on the table, and with the scrapping of the “hated” human rights act they stand a much better chance of going through. Employers will be able to shit all over the workforce with no come-back, the Trades Union Act that’s in the pipeline is going to render unions toothless, and our safety net, the Welfare State has been kicked to pieces already, at our insistence!! The Media (once again) convinced Joe Public that the unemployed family living next door had it easier and better than them, that they’re in the pub every night getting pissed, watching huge 3d TV’s, laughing at you as you trudge to work and fucking off to Benidorm twice a year. The incensed British public fucking demanded change and the government complied. Now when the job market falls through and they end up signing on stood next to the doley they despised they’ll probably think again, but it will be too late.

So why does the media want us out of the EU so badly? simple, Rupert Murdoch and other criminals of his ilk know that they can easily control a Tory government (or pretty much any other British government for that matter) he’s got enough dirt on everyone and the means to deliver it with the biggest impact imaginable, Murdoch and our government have a long history of scratching each other’s backs, just Google Hillsborough and you’ll see the extent of their collective evil. But while Murdoch can easily control our parties, he can’t control Europe, once we’re out he’ll have as many policies introduced as the other cunts.

Scotland, Ireland and Wales by all accounts want to remain in The EU, if we leave we can’t even call ourselves the United Kingdom any more. Immigration won’t be affected that much, over half of our immigrants are from outside the EU anyway, and the rest aren’t even dependant on our EU status, we take them because we’re in the Single Market and want to remain in it, that’s where the freedom of movement to work comes from, not the fucking EU.

So pretty much everything the public wants, they’re not even going to get, but you can’t tell them fuck all, I’ve kept out of on-line debates on the subject for obvious reasons, but end up arguing on a daily basis, people aren’t budging no matter what you point out to them, I’ve gone blue in the face arguing a point at work and all I get is “It doesn’t matter, we need to control our own country” ... we? ... our? ... pricks, I’ve known for years that I live in a politically ignorant society but the extent of the gullibility, stupidity and the complete inability to even consider they might have been lied to breaks my heart and makes me want to punch the fuckers in the mouth. I’ve even lost respect for people I’ve considered good friends for years over this matter, I even had to bollock my own Mother the other night for insisting her bins get emptied every three weeks instead of two because of the EU. But that’s what the referendum has intended to do from the start, it’s split the country down the middle, turned us against our friends, family and co-workers, and, whatever happens, when it all goes wrong we’ll blame each other for how we voted rather than the corrupt Tory wankers who’ve planned this all along.
Even worse, this afternoon, Jo Cox a Labour MP was shot and stabbed to death in her constituency, she was part of the remain camp and her assailant allegedly shouted “Britain first” as he was dragged to the ground, whether she was in the remain camp or the leave camp doesn’t matter, it’s getting to be fucking disgusting, my country is going to shit.

The sad part is, is that the whole point of the EU, is to allow members to move around for safety, and so that the better off countries can help the worst off, despite all this austerity bollocks we are still a wealthy country, we have it so much better than many others, But we just want to take more and give nothing back while banging on about what a fabulous world shaping Empire we once were.
We’re not an “Empire”, we’re not “Great”, we’re not even United anymore, we’re just a shower of selfish cunts and we’ll deserve everything we get.

Any of you lot got a spare room? just in case?

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Fuckin sex pistols mad

13 (edited by ℊnat 2016-06-17 01:26:14)

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

Crazy how similar some of that sounds to stuff over here, especially this bit

the Welfare State has been kicked to pieces already, at our insistence!! The Media (once again) convinced Joe Public that the unemployed family living next door had it easier and better than them, that they’re in the pub every night getting pissed, watching huge 3d TV’s, laughing at you as you trudge to work and fucking off to Benidorm twice a year. The incensed British public fucking demanded change and the government complied. Now when the job market falls through and they end up signing on stood next to the doley they despised they’ll probably think again, but it will be too late.

I've thought about this a lot, and imo this is the essence of why poor and working people vote against their own interests. There's a hierarchy, and as long as people are taught theres someone below them they feel they have to protect whats theres or else they will end up going down in rank. You hear about upward mobility all the time, do this do that work hard then you will get your moment in the sun...and if it werent for them pesky free loaders, immigrants, minorities, etc...

Poor people vote for policies that benefit the rich, because they think (at least subconciously) that they will at some point be better off themselves. When in reality they are only hurting themselves and those who are even worse off than they are.

What if you guys leave the EU and Trump gets elected? will there be anywhere we can go?

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

From what little ive experienced of Europe I think leaving the EU would be bad considering all the Brits who can freely move across Europe for work. What happens to them? Do they all have to go back home?

gnat wrote:

What if you guys leave the EU and Trump gets elected? will there be anywhere we can go?

We all take canoes from Florida to the Bahamas.

"I pop punk, not pills"

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

gnat wrote:

Crazy how similar some of that sounds to stuff over here, especially this bit

the Welfare State has been kicked to pieces already, at our insistence!! The Media (once again) convinced Joe Public that the unemployed family living next door had it easier and better than them, that they’re in the pub every night getting pissed, watching huge 3d TV’s, laughing at you as you trudge to work and fucking off to Benidorm twice a year. The incensed British public fucking demanded change and the government complied. Now when the job market falls through and they end up signing on stood next to the doley they despised they’ll probably think again, but it will be too late.

I've thought about this a lot, and imo this is the essence of why poor and working people vote against their own interests. There's a hierarchy, and as long as people are taught theres someone below them they feel they have to protect whats theres or else they will end up going down in rank. You hear about upward mobility all the time, do this do that work hard then you will get your moment in the sun...and if it werent for them pesky free loaders, immigrants, minorities, etc...

Poor people vote for policies that benefit the rich, because they think (at least subconciously) that they will at some point be better off themselves. When in reality they are only hurting themselves and those who are even worse off than they are.

What if you guys leave the EU and Trump gets elected? will there be anywhere we can go?

Doesn’t really bear thinking about does it? I suppose we could all move to Kimo’s but I’m calling dibs on the sofa.
I said the people in my country were politically ignorant, when it comes to global politics they haven’t got a clue, most can name the major world leaders but that’s about the extent of it. The news outlets will only cover so much in the headline form that interests our population, you can find more information but it’s usually buried on boring financial pages that most people skip to get to the tits, death and scandals. The general consensus of your major players is,
Trump, he’s entertaining, has some policies they can relate to, he’s banging the same “close the borders” drum that’s got them all excited over here, they know he’s a bit of a dick, politically incorrect, he has funny hair and wants to nail his own daughter, but that’s about it.
Clinton: She’s Bill’s wife, he was funny too, played the Sax and shagged his intern, something about cigars and spunky dresses, Hilary is business like and a lot more serious, something about emails, but that’s about it.
Sanders: Who? is that the bloke who sells chicken? That’s about it.
Your whole election race has been condensed down to a sideshow, mainly a deluge of Trump rhetoric, gaffs and jokes, he’s completely dominated coverage in the UK, Sanders hasn’t had a look in, and all the scandal about Clinton has been overshadowed by two page specials showing what Trump looks like with different dead animals superimposed on his head. There’s a general NIMBY approach to American politics, until it directly affects them they will tolerate anything, like I said, the information is there if you want to find it, I personally don’t follow it as closely as I do British politics, but I try to keep an eye on the big picture, I’ve probably learned more about it from reading the conversations on here though, the posts aren’t dulled down to make the sinister stuff seem commonplace and uninteresting, or sensationalized to draw your attention away from it, the main issues are available without having to wade through the bullshit to actually see them, so, thanks for that.

But any alliance with the US would be a tricky one, we’re definitely heading for a change of leadership, if we vote out this week, Cameron will have to go for calling the nations bluff and losing, if we vote in he will still be forced to resign because of the complete fucking mess he’s made of the whole thing, the only reason he promised us a referendum in the first place was because he was scared of UKIP getting too many votes in the last election so he thought he’d dangle a carrot in front of the British public, as it happens, UKIP got 12.6% of the vote, just under half of the total Labour achieved, and ended up with one seat in parliament, Labour won 232 seats, such is British politics, I personally don’t want to see UKIP get any seats but think it’s disgraceful that a party with that much support can achieve so little.
So if Cameron steps down he’ll still remain in power until a successor is chosen, by rights it should be Theresa May and by all accounts MP’s on both sides of the Tory divide will choose her to be a caretaker leader, but eventually Boris is going to go for it, if he loses his Brexit campaign he won’t (or shouldn’t) get it, if he wins he’s pretty much a dead cert, the guy is a tool, he’s one of the “Bullingdon club” from Oxford University, along with Cameron and a lot of big fish and business men, spoilt petulant brats who’ve never had to worry about money in their miserable lives, they used to go out and trash their community, local bars etc knowing that if worse came to worse they could hand over a fat cheque and say “Now, fuck off!” they just ooze privilege and are pretty untouchable. Boris wants to close our Borders and warns about Turkey joining the EU as early as this December, flooding us with greedy immigrants, this wouldn’t happen overnight anyway, it would take a couple of Decades before they were even in, and if we were in the EU we could simply use our veto and block them, the vote has to be unanimous, there’s likely to be more resistance anyway seeing as their appalling human rights, corruption and links with ISIS put more members off than encourages them, Interestingly, Boris’s Great Grandfather was a Turkish refugee who was granted asylum in the UK, his Grandmother was Swiss and the fucker was born in America, talk about pulling the ladder up after you.
Michael Gove is also in with a chance, he’s another one on the exit side of things, the current Justice Secretary, he’s had a few u-turns and wobbles with expense claims but he’s actually done the odd half decent thing (for a Tory), but he’s more under the public radar than the others. he’s got a better chance than the likes of Osborne (who’d have thought handling the country’s finances would prove so difficult for someone with an O’level in maths?)
Ian Duncan Smith might want it but he’s got no fucking chance, apart from being an obvious total bastard, he once led the Tories (after Thatcher’s recommendation) before being ousted by a no confidence vote, he’s continually lied about his qualifications and education, he’s been in the shit over expenses and made dodgy payments to his wife amongst several other misdemeanours, typical Tory really.
and despite his “keep out Johnny Foreigner” approach to the Brexit, he’s Scottish and his Grandmother was Japanese, also, a massive massive cunt, (IDS, not his gran, who I’m sure was lovely)
Whichever of these fuckers gets the job, they are going to have to negotiate our exit from the EU, strangely, the best person to do it would be Cameron.
Then there’s Nigel fucking Farage, the one trick pony that started this mess, he’s an old Tory with the usual history of Tax Avoidance and political wrong doings that go with it, now leader of UKIP but from what I’ve heard, Boris Johnson has already offered him a place in his Tory Cabinet and a peerage, bit presumptuous I know, he’ll get a seat in the House of Lords after complaining all through the campaign about unelected bureaucrats making laws that don’t affect them, delicious irony indeed. He’s also the Great-Great-Grandson of a penniless German Immigrant (are you seeing a pattern here?)
This is Nigel standing proudly in front of his latest ad campaign

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/ad_209953576.jpg?w=748&h=498&crop=1

of course, he claims the sea of brown faces isn’t racist. But he’s come unstuck with this one, not least because the picture is actually immigrants at the Croatian-Slovenian border fleeing ISIS, but because of it’s uncanny resemblance to anti Jewish Nazi propaganda

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClETtGHWAAAe0la.jpg

Uncanny indeed, these people really do make things awkward for themselves, it seems deliberate but you never know.
I really wish Phoenix was here, he could tell you a lot more about the Tories than I can only he’d probably be more balanced about it. (he’d be wrong though wink )

You’re spot on about social hierarchy too, it’s pretty disgusting the way we judge on wealth and status in my country, looking down at people with less, envying people with more and constantly competing against anyone who’s roughly in the same bracket as ourselves. I’ve got a decent job with decent pay but the people I work with don’t seem to realise how close to the bottom we actually are, that without that job they would plunge, or with an event like an accident, illness or even a divorce can drop you to the bottom of the pile, but they’ve been convinced that anyone who is poor is poor because they are lazy, or stupid, our government even slashed benefits and claimed it wasn’t victimisation, they were giving them “life opportunities” that by starving them they would get off their arses and work like every other good, hard-working citizen. The fact that they were already starving and desperate for work is lost on the fuckers.

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
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Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

Sanders is a good guy. I disagree with him on a few things but he does not have a heart of stone like most politicians. I wanted him to win the nomination badly, but its not going to happen. Clinton has too much power and influence being a former first lady, senator from NY, secretary of state, etc. Her crimes really are severe and would have already sunk any other candidate 10 times by now. There are also third party candidates, Libertarian Gary Johnson and Green Party Jill Stein. I'd vote for Jill Stein if I voted, but I probably won't. The whole things predetermined. I wish Bernie would run on the green ticket with Stein, that way they'd poll high enough to be included in the debates this fall. That would be major exposure for real progressive values. But he won't do that. He doesn't want to be remembered as the guy who split the democratic vote and gave Trump the presidency.

This whole EU business is interesting. Do you think there would be live coverage of the vote returns when it happens somewhere on the internet? That would be viewable in the states.

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

I would imagine there will be, the bbc will probably stream it live, they're extremely biased but you'll get to see how things are rolling on.

I liked Sanders, I think I said in the past that he reminds me of Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the Labour party. Unfortunately thanks to the character assassination by the Tory run press, even hardened Labour voters think Corbyn's a fruitcake terrorist-hugging peacenik, back in the day he wanted to negotiate with Gerry Adams (leader of Sinn Fein and one of the "alleged" leaders of the IRA) at the time everyone else was trying to surpress the party, we even had a ridiculous period where Adams was allowed to speak on TV but only if his voice was dubbed over by a voice actor (if they'd gone for Morgan Freeman the guy would be PM now)
The fact that hostilities only ended because of negotiations seems to be lost on most people.
He also wants rid of Trident so that's convinced people he's a nutter, most of the military want to see the back of Trident, it's a useless system, all the financial trails lead to Westminster so it's extremely profitable to key politicians who are fighting to keep it. The public have been convinced that without Trident we would be a target, this is despite the fact that we warned Iran that having Nukes would make them a target, the only countries in the EU with nuclear weapons are us and France, and they're not doing very fucking well at this moment.

On a side note, after the IRA bombed the shit out of Manchester in 1996, our Government pledged £450k to rebuild, the EU gave us £21.5m, that's the point of the EU.

Anyway, I hope Sanders stays active whatever happens, his presence in your elections restores a bit of faith to me.

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Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

A vote for Europe is a vote for TTIP  "Just Saying"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw7P0RGZQxQ

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

Why? Because the Tories are soooo against it?
TTIP is a different argument altogether, the only hope we have of avoiding it is if someone like Corbyn gets in power, and only then if we are IN the EU to fight it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr … trade-deal

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Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

Tories ,Tories ,Tories.... hahaha, Only time will tell....

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

When it comes to the Tory party time already has told.
You can't flippantly dismiss their involvement in all of this if you're willing to hand the country over to them lock,stock and barrel.
Besides, time won't tell which was the best way to vote because you're only going to see one of the scenarios play out, whichever way you vote things are only going to get much worse, then the gullible British public can carry on blaming each other for years to come.

jello biafra ..... jello biafra ......... JELLO BIAFRA !!!!
Fuckin sex pistols mad

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

You guys okay over there? I thought "remain" was polling far ahead before the vote? Where will the new PM come from since Cameron is resigning

"Flowers are cunts basically." - Guana

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

New PM will come from the Conservative party.  They'll just vote internally on a new party leader.  I heard it could take upwards of 2 months.  And because internally they were split between leaving and staying, who they select will be very important to how the exit takes place.

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

New PM will be boris johnson as guana said, he is portrayed as a  buffoon but he's a shrewd cunt and i don't mean that in a good way.
Corbyn has further fucked/been fucked so if things carry on like this tories will get back in again. I voted stay in the end for the simple fact i don't trust the conservatives as far as i could throw the whole lot of them(for anyone who needs a view of what conservatives true colours are google 1984 miners strike and see for yourselves there view of the english man in the street)

25 (edited by mel_the_bell 2016-06-24 16:10:18)

Re: Interesting History information for the British and the EU Takeover

well, theres far more idiots in the general population than i thought, falling for the right wings lies (not that the other side didnt lie) i aint a fan of any beaurocracy mind, but cutting yer nose off to spite yer face and jumping into a big black hole without knowing where it leads is just idiotic.

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